ECT Is "Hell" divine torture or divine justice?

[patrick jane]

we'll all find out eventually. why rush it. not that we're doing that, but we will all be alone, for an instant, when we find out. personally i do not believe in a God with pride, ego and wrath, vengeance and eternal torture. several decades on earth, being a terrible sinner does not justify eternal anguish and torment. i don't buy it. i'm certainly not saying i can do what i want, we all have to strive to be Christlike. folks will definately say i'm not following scripture. ok. in this life EVERY conscience person will suffer, feel guilt, shame, despair, sadness, grief, pain, mental or physical anguish and torment. i could go on. but for a time, we will all experience this. we are on our own. it's up to each individual to try to be a good and improving person. for those of you that secretly wish some folks go to hell, you really know not what you wish for. think about it. and go to hell - oh, by the way, i think hell is for a select few, and heaven is for everybody else - peace - :granite: YOU know what you do - God knows WHY you do it

 

[patrick jane]

i can't believe nobody has commented on my last post

 

[patrick jane]

i think this an interesting thread, but it seems nobody ever really wants to discuss what HELL may actually be like - forever. people either point to literal scripture as their public belief or whatever their particular faith is. do we really think, that's just how it's gonna be. eternal bliss or eternal anguish. not fair, i don't remember asking to be here, and now that we're here, we get a chance to burn forever. that makes sense. it's a good thing we're on the right side, huh ? Thank God. people that knowingly, continually create evil and sin obviously will pay. but forever ? am i the only sinner a little bit worried about that ? c'mon, you don't have to honest with me, but c'mon. huh ? :kiss:

 

[Krsto]

A perverted concept of the way we perceive justice....maybe. However, The Bible teaches that our God is not only a God of love but He is also Holy, just and a consuming fire. I realise that many Christians believe in annihilationism but I am not of that camp.

If what you say is true, why did Jesus Himself spend time emphasising the dangers of Gehenna? The doctrine of eternal punishment does not make God into a sadistic monster as you say but is a statement of His Holiness and justice. Also it is a reminder of the way of salvation that He has provided in The Person of His Son!

Pete

There is nothing about the holiness of God that requires him to keep people alive so he can torture them endlessly for one little sin so your idea of holiness is also quite perverted and makes God out to be a sadistic monster. We can be reminded of God's way of salvation if eternal suffering doesn't exist so why do you bring up the reminder? The wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life. That's what our bible teaches us in Romans, correct? It's really sad you must pervert the Gospel so. Since God is a consuming fire wouldn't you expect that fire to consume things? Your idea of God is he's a non-consuming fire. Exactly opposite of what he is.

 

[Krsto]

we'll all find out eventually. why rush it. not that we're doing that, but we will all be alone, for an instant, when we find out. personally i do not believe in a God with pride, ego and wrath, vengeance and eternal torture. several decades on earth, being a terrible sinner does not justify eternal anguish and torment. i don't buy it. i'm certainly not saying i can do what i want, we all have to strive to be Christlike. folks will definately say i'm not following scripture. ok. in this life EVERY conscience person will suffer, feel guilt, shame, despair, sadness, grief, pain, mental or physical anguish and torment. i could go on. but for a time, we will all experience this. we are on our own. it's up to each individual to try to be a good and improving person. for those of you that secretly wish some folks go to hell, you really know not what you wish for. think about it. and go to hell - oh, by the way, i think hell is for a select few, and heaven is for everybody else - peace - :granite: YOU know what you do - God knows WHY you do it

Indeed but Evangelical theology says sin separates us from God forever. Any sin. So the first time you sinned as a child you deserve eternal suffering. I'm not buying it either. Even if Paul taught that I wouldn't believe it. I'd rather think Paul was wrong or we have no way of really knowing what he believed before believing God sends people to eternal suffering.

 

[patrick jane]

we'll all find out eventually. why rush it. not that we're doing that, but we will all be alone, for an instant, when we find out. personally i do not believe in a God with pride, ego and wrath, vengeance and eternal torture. several decades on earth, being a terrible sinner does not justify eternal anguish and torment. i don't buy it. i'm certainly not saying i can do what i want, we all have to strive to be Christlike. folks will definately say i'm not following scripture. ok. in this life EVERY conscience person will suffer, feel guilt, shame, despair, sadness, grief, pain, mental or physical anguish and torment. i could go on. but for a time, we will all experience this. we are on our own. it's up to each individual to try to be a good and improving person. for those of you that secretly wish some folks go to hell, you really know not what you wish for. think about it. and go to hell - oh, by the way, i think hell is for a select few, and heaven is for everybody else - peace - :granite: YOU know what you do - God knows WHY you do it

amen, krsto, we must focus on the free gift of salvation and grace. God is infinite Good, infinite Holiness. He wants us all back. God told us so :cow: yeah, that's right

 

[patrick jane]

but anyway, to answer the question of the thread - hell is not divine period. hell is the punishment we think either we deserve, others deserve or nobody deserves. we all deserve it. but God saved us all through Jesus Christ. God commands us to try, in spite of the world around us. now, let's go love our neighbors, or else ur goin' to hell !:devil:

 

[patrick jane]

HATE = hellfire - hell - ur goin to hell ! go to hell ! i hope they burn in hell ! listen to us. it's in the looks we give and get, it's in the judgment we make, it's in our attitudes in society, it's in traffic, in school, at home and at work. it's on TOL, facebook, everywhere you look. it's in me and you (more you than me), yeah you ! go to hell ! jus kiddin'. i'm not goin, he's goin, she's goin, they're goin, cuz he said this, cuz he belives that, she does this, and he's too fat. look at him, look at them, she said, what ? wow, look at that butt. i'm glad i ain't like that. . . . anymore:think:

 

[revpete]

Well, I guess the first thing I would do is look to the symbol from which the lake of fire derived one of its names, namely the valley in which Jerusalem's trash was burned. The fire was ongoing but that which was cast into it was consumed was it not?

Yes and that valley is now a park! In the context that our Lord used the word the meaning is obvious. As has been stated in another post (not by me) Jesus gave the sternest of warnings about eternal punishment. Also, in the case of Judas Iscariot it was said by Jesus Himself that it would have been better if he had not been born, Matt. 26:24. If he was to be annihilated ie cease to exist, why did Jesus not say that would have been the SAME as if he had not been born? If he is to be annihilated then that would be the case.

Pete

 

[revpete]

There is nothing about the holiness of God that requires him to keep people alive so he can torture them endlessly for one little sin so your idea of holiness is also quite perverted and makes God out to be a sadistic monster. We can be reminded of God's way of salvation if eternal suffering doesn't exist so why do you bring up the reminder? The wages of sin is death but the free gift of God is eternal life. That's what our bible teaches us in Romans, correct? It's really sad you must pervert the Gospel so. Since God is a consuming fire wouldn't you expect that fire to consume things? Your idea of God is he's a non-consuming fire. Exactly opposite of what he is.

God does not keep them alive! Study the immortality of the soul.

You completely misunderstand two essential things. The one is how seriously God views sin and the other is His absolute holiness! If anyone is guilty of perverting the gospel (unintentionally maybe) then I'd take a long hard look in the mirror! BTW do you believe that a person has to repent in order to be saved?

Pete

 

[revpete]

A lot of people are taking the seven headed, ten horned beast literally, even though the context and the genre dictate that it is symbolic. And this is the beast that is tormented day and night forever, which they also insist is literal. If that's the correct method of interpretation, then I'm the easter bunny. The way to read the Bible is to understand the historical context and try to understand what the author is trying to convey, not by asserting rules set in concrete that say "Everything is to be taken literally unless I say otherwise".

Rules are abused. Just because people bend and pervert the rule doesn't make the rule itself wrong. I only gave that one rule as an example; of course it's not set in stone. Another example would be Miles Coverdale's rules of Bible study:

1) What is spoken
2) Of Whom
3) With what words
4) At what time
5) To what intent
6) With what circumstances, considering what goes before and what follows ie context.

These are examples meant to assist us in our study of God's Word.

BTW d'ya like carrots?

Pete

 

[fzappa13]

Yes and that valley is now a park! In the context that our Lord used the word the meaning is obvious. As has been stated in another post (not by me) Jesus gave the sternest of warnings about eternal punishment. Also, in the case of Judas Iscariot it was said by Jesus Himself that it would have been better if he had not been born, Matt. 26:24. If he was to be annihilated ie cease to exist, why did Jesus not say that would have been the SAME as if he had not been born? If he is to be annihilated then that would be the case.

Pete

 

[WonderfulLordJesus]

Yes and that valley is now a park! In the context that our Lord used the word the meaning is obvious. As has been stated in another post (not by me) Jesus gave the sternest of warnings about eternal punishment. Also, in the case of Judas Iscariot it was said by Jesus Himself that it would have been better if he had not been born, Matt. 26:24. If he was to be annihilated ie cease to exist, why did Jesus not say that would have been the SAME as if he had not been born? If he is to be annihilated then that would be the case.

Pete ��

This is something that was always there in scripture to me, also. The other day, I expressed similar, that those saints burned at the stake would, therefore, have experienced the wrath of God and hell. The literal scripture references to torment aside, it's senseless that our Lord would have given such dire warnings of annihilation. Also, this would make an equivalence of those saints burned at the stake and the likes of Adolf Hitler. It is also a very cunning deception, that such as Christian martyrdom or hell, what's the difference? Lastly, soul sleep and annihilation are darling doctrines of a few so-called Christian denominations that are, actually, cults of proven false prophets.

 

[revpete]

This is something that was always there in scripture to me, also. The other day, I expressed similar, that those saints burned at the stake would, therefore, have experienced the wrath of God and hell. The literal scripture references to torment aside, it's senseless that our Lord would have given such dire warnings of annihilation. Also, this would make an equivalence of those saints burned at the stake and the likes of Adolf Hitler. It is also a very cunning deception, that such as Christian martyrdom or hell, what's the difference? Lastly, soul sleep and annihilation are darling doctrines of a few so-called Christian denominations that are, actually, cults of proven false prophets.

Yes I agree. Trouble is that now there have been a few notable theologians who have abandoned the truth of eternal punishment for the deception of annihilation such as John Stott and Roger Forster.

Pete

 

[patrick jane]

God does not keep them alive! Study the immortality of the soul.

You completely misunderstand two essential things. The one is how seriously God views sin and the other is His absolute holiness! If anyone is guilty of perverting the gospel (unintentionally maybe) then I'd take a long hard look in the mirror! BTW do you believe that a person has to repent in order to be saved?

Pete ��

so, God created Everything, so that a select number of good people could get it right, and go to heaven. obviously God takes sin and immorailty serious. God also knows that we are all sinners. i think people put too much emphasis on hell. that's just giving satan too much credit. and Judas Iscariot did not go to hell. he fulfilled God's Plan :carryon:

 

[meshak]

and Judas Iscariot did not go to hell.

why do you say that? how do you know he did not go to hell?

 

[meshak]

why do you say that? how do you know he did not go to hell?

BTW, judgment day is not occurred yet.

 

[patrick jane]

i'm just guessing

 

[Krsto]

God does not keep them alive! Study the immortality of the soul.

You completely misunderstand two essential things. The one is how seriously God views sin and the other is His absolute holiness! If anyone is guilty of perverting the gospel (unintentionally maybe) then I'd take a long hard look in the mirror! BTW do you believe that a person has to repent in order to be saved?

Pete

Yes, I have studied the immortality of the soul and found it to be a Platonic idea, not a biblical idea.

Yes, God views sin very seriously, seriously enough to warn us of the consequences: pain and misery in this life, and finally, death. Rom. 6:23 The wages of sin is death. Death is pretty serious stuff but I'm not going to make up eternal suffering just to make it seem more serious. I'm not into make-it-up-as-you-go religion.

Yes, God is holy, absolutely holy, but there is nothing about that that demands that God punish someone forever for one single sin, especially when people don't have a snowball's chance in hell of avoiding sin. If a holy God is going to judge us so severely for sin then don't you think a merciful God would have done a better job of making us so we have at least half a chance of not sinning rather than zero chance? That's like me judging my 6 year old kids for not being as tall as I am. No just, holy, merciful, or loving God is going to punish so severely for something we have no chance to avoid. If you think he would, you have created a monstrous God in your own head. Try re-interpreting the scriptures differently so you don't make God out to be a sadistic monster, OK?

 

[patrick jane]

Yes, I have studied the immortality of the soul and found it to be a Platonic idea, not a biblical idea.

Yes, God views sin very seriously, seriously enough to warn us of the consequences: pain and misery in this life, and finally, death. Rom. 6:23 The wages of sin is death. Death is pretty serious stuff but I'm not going to make up eternal suffering just to make it seem more serious. I'm not into make-it-up-as-you-go religion.

Yes, God is holy, absolutely holy, but there is nothing about that that demands that God punish someone forever for one single sin, especially when people don't have a snowball's chance in hell of avoiding sin. If a holy God is going to judge us so severely for sin then don't you think a merciful God would have done a better job of making us so we have at least half a chance of not sinning rather than zero chance? That's like me judging my 6 year old kids for not being as tall as I am. No just, holy, merciful, or loving God is going to punish so severely for something we have no chance to avoid. If you think he would, you have created a monstrous God in your own head. Try re-interpreting the scriptures differently so you don't make God out to be a sadistic monster, OK?

KRSTO - i love it. amen - that's pretty much what i think too. people seem to need that unimaginabe, indescribable pain, torment and anguish punishment to hang over OTHER peoples' heads. i guess it makes some folks feel good and worthwhile