God - The Great Scientist

iouae

Well-known member
How did it cover the whole Earth?

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This is how...

Gen 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...nd-1000km-down-a-third-of-way-to-earths-core/

https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-water-in-earths-mantle-as-in-all-the-oceans/

If you have any ideas on this subject, I am all ears.
 
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nikolai_42

Well-known member
It is anathema for most Christians to entertain (even for a nanosecond) the idea that God may not know everything, and may be experimenting, learning and growing as time goes on.

At this point you have a god that has serious rivals in the Pantheons of every major mythology in history. Made in the image of man they are able only to wield their powers and passions with comparable instability - subject as they are to the natural laws and human foibles that mar the landscape of history.
A God of open theism meets the imagination of fallen man with great welcome as now he is reassured that God is more like him than one thought and the unfolding of the universe is as mysterious to the Creator as the creation. In this uncertainty nothing can be the object of unshakeable confidence as it all depends on.....

Zeus is playing with Schroedinger’s cat.


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Stripe

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This is how...

Gen 7:11
In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

So there was pressurised water inside the Earth, it broke forth in fountains to submerge everything and then it flowed into ocean basins.

This is going to require some dramatic geomorphic changes.

1. If Everest was covered, that volume of water is never going to leave dry ground again. Thus Everest was pushed up in the flood.

2. If the ocean basins were extant, the water would have flowed straight into them, not covered the land for nearly a year.

3. Fountains out of the ground from such depths is going to bring up a great deal of sediment.

4. This all happened about 4,500 years ago.

Are you sure you believe in the flood?

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iouae

Well-known member
At this point you have a god that has serious rivals in the Pantheons of every major mythology in history. Made in the image of man they are able only to wield their powers and passions with comparable instability - subject as they are to the natural laws and human foibles that mar the landscape of history.
A God of open theism meets the imagination of fallen man with great welcome as now he is reassured that God is more like him than one thought and the unfolding of the universe is as mysterious to the Creator as the creation. In this uncertainty nothing can be the object of unshakeable confidence as it all depends on.....

Zeus is playing with Schroedinger’s cat.


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Does this scripture fit your description of the God of the Bible?

Exo 32:10
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Think about it all you folks who think God has everything planned in advance...

God tells Moses to lead the slaves out of Egypt to the PROMISED land.

The slaves get there, get uppity and rebellious, and God decides they will NEVER enter His rest, and wants to destroy them. Moses talks God into not destroying them. Nevertheless they will NEVER for all eternity, enter His rest, meaning eternal life.

Does this sound like a God who does as we do, handle situations as they arise, or a God who has it all planned out in advance?

If God has it all planned in advance, then God lied in promising them the PROMISED land.

Or they just turned out to be duds, like king Saul. God intended their good, but their bad precluded God doing them the good He intended.

The natural reading of the Bible is that God offers a lot of folks His good, and the bad that happens to them is their own making. But God searches the earth for those He can show Himself strong on their behalf - those prepared to trust Him.
 
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nikolai_42

Well-known member
Does this scripture fit your description of the God of the Bible?

Exo 32:10
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

Think about it all you folks who think God has everything planned in advance...

God tells Moses to lead the slaves out of Egypt to the PROMISED land.

The slaves get there, get uppity and rebellious, and God decides they will NEVER enter His rest, and wants to destroy them. Moses talks God into not destroying them. Nevertheless they will NEVER for all eternity, enter His rest, meaning eternal life.

Does this sound like a God who does as we do, handle situations as they arise, or a God who has it all planned out in advance?

If God has it all planned in advance, then God lied in promising them the PROMISED land.

Or they just turned out to be duds, like king Saul. God intended their good, but their bad precluded God doing them the good He intended.

The natural reading of the Bible is that God offers a lot of folks His good, and the bad that happens to them is their own making. But God searches the earth for those He can show Himself strong on their behalf - those prepared to trust Him.

Romans 11:33 (KJV) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Let the chips fall where they may, a God who learns can be taken by surprise and His plans undermined by the unexpected. Remember the ifs of God’s promises. If you are willing and obedient...doesn’t mean God doesn’t know the heart already. Rather, it means He is proving the basis of His judgement beforehand so that - in the end - no one will say “What are You doing that for?”. Every mouth shall be stopped.

And in advance?

Acts 15:18 (KJV) Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

(Apologies for any formatting issues as I don’t regularly use a phone to reply)


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iouae

Well-known member
We were actually talking about God... not science. Of course God is not confused by science, nor anything else. He knows and understand everything.



Here is something for you to ponder.

Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The natural reading of this verse is that God made this covering cherub perfect (and God lists his wonderful attributes, all God given) and he was this day till iniquity was found in him.

We are told that this cherub, Lucifer began to think some naughty thoughts.

Did God know the day, hour and nanosecond that this would happen?

Or, are we to believe the natural reading of the verse that iniquity was FOUND in him. All by himself, this cherub sinned.

So God neither placed the thoughts in Lucifer, nor was God expecting this "perfect" angel to fall - he fell all by himself.

But look how God handles it. God turns lemons into lemonade. God gives Lucifer what he wanted, rulership over a semi-autonomous fallen realm. God uses Lucifer to push Eve. God uses Lucifer to push mankind. God will release Lucifer after the Millennium to push the undecided into making their life or death choice - God or Lucifer.

So God does not have to know the future. There is nothing unexpected that happens that God cannot handle. Which is exactly the same for us today. Life happens, but Christ in us can handle it.

Do you claim God planned Lucifer's fall?
 

6days

New member
Iouae said:
Here is something for you to ponder.

Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The natural reading of this verse is that God made this covering cherub perfect (and God lists his wonderful attributes, all God given) and he was this day till iniquity was found in him.

We are told that this cherub, Lucifer began to think some naughty thoughts.

Did God know the day, hour and nanosecond that this would happen?
Of course. God knows our thoughts before we even think them. Psalm 139:2

Iouae said:
Or, are we to believe the natural reading of the verse that iniquity was FOUND in him. All by himself, this cherub sinned.

So God neither placed the thoughts in Lucifer, nor was God expecting this "perfect" angel to fall - he fell all by himself.
God knew this perfect angel would fall. But, He created us anyway because of love.

Iouae said:
So God does not have to know the future.
Knowing your thoughts before you think them, is knowing the future. He knew we would reject Him, but created us...and loved us anyway. ROM. 5:10


AMAZING love... how can it be...that thou my God would die for ME???
 

iouae

Well-known member
Of course. God knows our thoughts before we even think them. Psalm 139:2

God knew this perfect angel would fall. But, He created us anyway because of love.

Knowing your thoughts before you think them, is knowing the future. He knew we would reject Him, but created us...and loved us anyway. ROM. 5:10


AMAZING love... how can it be...that thou my God would die for ME???

Here is what Psa 139:2 REALLY says...
Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

God, from afar off, knows our thoughts.

NOTHING about God knowing our FUTURE thoughts. That is a figment of your imagination.

God did not know Lucifer would fall, till AFTER iniquity was FOUND in him.

If one finds something, it implies randomness.

Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
 
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iouae

Well-known member
Can God learn?

Heb 5:8
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Jesus, who is God, learned.

But scoffers and doubters will argue, as a MAN he learned, not as a God.

Yet, what use would it have been for Jesus to come to earth and learn something, only to forget that lesson when He ascended back to heaven.

Especially as we are told that Jesus uses what He learned to be a more sympathetic High Priest. Surely all believe that Jesus retains His empathy? The following verse says He does.

Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

So we know that Jesus learned empathy and obedience from His suffering.

Jesus is the firstborn of many brethren. As such He is like the brethren. And we brethren first and foremost have to learn obedience to the Father's will. And Jesus sets the example of this. Jesus sends thoughts of obedience into our minds through the Holy Spirit. He sends thoughts of obedience which He has towards the Father, and plants these in our minds.

There was a change of relationship between Father and Son at the cross. It became a relationship of obedience on the part of Christ towards the Father. There is only one will being done in heaven and that is the Father's.
 

iouae

Well-known member
We live in a world where nobody knows everything, but we are all living and interacting together, and doing this in real time. We are learning from our experiences together. We experience the joy of discovery and learning and growing together. Nobody knows the future. Everyone has free will and this free will can occasionally get in the way of others. Nobody gets everything they want. Occasionally we are frustrated or prevented from gaining our wills and desires.

Yet religious folks think that God knows everything, including the future, and that He is above time and chance and true free will. They feel that He pretends to interact, but actually knows what the outcome of this interaction will be. This implies there is no such thing as true free will. And God they feel cannot truly be creative or discover, or learn or grow, because He knows everything.

Thus this construct of God is contrary to everything that happens in real life, or even what is described in the Bible. They have just created a figment of their imagination, a fictitious God who does not match anything we have in the real world.

God grows, learns, interacts in real time, experiences joy, surprise, regret. He does not get everything He wants all the time. He does not know the future beyond what He works towards achieving. And because God has power, generally by working towards a goal, He eventually gets what He wanted. God can change His plans, as the Bible clearly shows. God interacts with us by answering our prayers, forgiving us, changing from the evil He intended towards us for our sins, or relenting of the good He intended us, by punishing us say by not giving us the promised land.

God is easy to understand when one keeps ones feet rooted in this world and not in the space cadet ideas punted by theology schools and philosophy.

One way to identify flawed theology (fiction) is to look at what fiction writers do. They create an alternate universe, like Terry Pratchett's "Diskworld" in which they make their fictional God perform fictional tasks. Almost like the Greeks did with their fictitious Greek mythology.
 

6days

New member
iouae said:
God, from afar off, knows our thoughts.
Of course. God not only knows our thoughts as we think them, but he knew from the past what our thoughts would be. (The Hebrew word for 'from afar' is also translated 'of old or 'in the past'.

iouae said:
NOTHING about God knowing our FUTURE thoughts. That is a figment of your imagination.
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" Jer. 1:5

iouae said:
God did not know Lucifer would fall, till AFTER iniquity was FOUND in him.
You are making stuff up to suit your own impotent God. Satan did not out-smart Jehovah God. God who is perfect in knowlege certainly knew Satan would rebel. God knew before I was born, that we humans would CRUCIFY His Son. Yet... He made us anyways. Amazing love how can it be that thou my God would die for me?
 

iouae

Well-known member
Of course. God not only knows our thoughts as we think them, but he knew from the past what our thoughts would be. (The Hebrew word for 'from afar' is also translated 'of old or 'in the past'.
Now you need a "spooky" interpretation, instead of the more natural Ockham's razor, God just knows our thoughts from far away in heaven. Natural always trumps spooky.

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" Jer. 1:5

Yes, Jeremiah was formed for a specific purpose, as was John the Baptist, Moses and many others.

You are making stuff up to suit your own impotent God. Satan did not out-smart Jehovah God. God who is perfect in knowlege certainly knew Satan would rebel.

That's not what Ezek 28 says, that iniquity was found in Lucifer - finding something implies randomness.

God knew before I was born, that we humans would CRUCIFY His Son.

Yes, because this implies no spookiness. God just decided to send His Son to die, and then did it. Does not take knowing the future. It takes normal/non-spookiness. I can decide to build a house and then do it. Does not mean I can tell the future.

Yet... He made us anyways. Amazing love how can it be that thou my God would die for me?

No argument with that.
 

6days

New member
Iouae said:
Now you need a "spooky" interpretation...
On the contrary. We need exegetical interpretation. Scripture should always be used to help interpret Scripture.

Iouae said:
6days said:
"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" Jer. 1:5
Yes, Jeremiah was formed for a specific purpose, as was John the Baptist, Moses and many others.
So... God knows the future for some people? The Creator God of the Bible has understanding that is infinite. His foreknowledge is not limited. Psalm 147:5

Iouae said:
That's not what Ezek 28 says, that iniquity was found in Lucifer - finding something implies randomness.
Satan might surprise your God. But Jehovah God has perfect knowledge. Job. 37:16. He KNOWS the end from the beginning.
Iouae said:
God just decided to send His Son to die, and then did it. Does not take knowing the future.
God knew our thoughts... that we would crucify Him. He knew every lash He would receive. He knew every agony He would suffer. He willingly went to Calvary knowing every step of suffering.

Iouae said:
I can decide to build a house and then do it. Does not mean I can tell the future.
You don't know if you can even take your next breath. But God knows when that last breath will happen. Job 14:5
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
SCIENCE
1 Tim 6:20-21
20 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge--
21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
Eph 5:7
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Matt 12:39
39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
II Th 2:10-11
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
John 8:51
51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
Col 2:20-23
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--
21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
22 which all concern things which perish with the using-- according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Mark 8:35
35 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
Col 2:8-9
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Rom 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Matt 15:8-9
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
Acts 19:19
19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver.
Heb 4:2
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Rom 14:22
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
2 Cor 1:9
9 Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead,
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Rom 8:20
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
1 Tim 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)


xxxx Science is a delusion in life. God said if they dont believe His Word He would send strong delusions. So that they would believe the lie. Then cast them into hell for it. They have always been close to finding the truth, but havent found it. They will always be close but will never find it.


II Th 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(NKJ)

[1Co 2:1, 4-7, 9-10, 13-15
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. ...
4 And my speech and my preaching [were] not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden [wisdom] which God ordained before the ages for our glory, ...
9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
10 But God has revealed [them] to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. ...
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one.


[1Co 1:21, 25-27
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. ...
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, [are called].
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
 

iouae

Well-known member
SCIENCE
xxxx Science is a delusion in life. God said if they dont believe His Word He would send strong delusions. So that they would believe the lie. Then cast them into hell for it. They have always been close to finding the truth, but havent found it. They will always be close but will never find it.

Why is it that I believe in science and God and that true science has no problem with God, nor God with true science?

It is the fictional world which YEC's live in which science and I have a problem with.
 

Squeaky

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Banned
Why is it that I believe in science and God and that true science has no problem with God, nor God with true science?

It is the fictional world which YEC's live in which science and I have a problem with.

I said
Well to really believe in something you submit to it. Do you submit to science or to God. Science has tried to prove God wrong for hundreds of years and hasn't done it. Now is there really any success in science that hasn't been a gift from God. And yet they don't give God the credit for it.

[Jas 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.
 

iouae

Well-known member
I said
Well to really believe in something you submit to it. Do you submit to science or to God. Science has tried to prove God wrong for hundreds of years and hasn't done it. Now is there really any success in science that hasn't been a gift from God. And yet they don't give God the credit for it.

[Jas 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

Science is a tool. It submits to us, not we to it. It is a method of discovering truth. Old light and the geologic column are truths we have to deal with in our theology. Science does not try to prove anything about God. It is not looking in the pages of the bible, but peering into space, or looking at fossils.

Its guys like 6days who try to make science perform for them and prove their (mistaken) ideas that we live in a 6000 year old universe. They are the ones who end up having a beef with mainstream science which says that all the different epochs of the geologic column were consecutive not concurrent, and that light is much older than 6000 years when it comes from the furthest reaches of the galaxy. Instead of fighting these FACTS they should be thanking science for exposing the flaws in their exegesis.
 

Squeaky

BANNED
Banned
Science is a tool. It submits to us, not we to it. It is a method of discovering truth. Old light and the geologic column are truths we have to deal with in our theology. Science does not try to prove anything about God. It is not looking in the pages of the bible, but peering into space, or looking at fossils.

Its guys like 6days who try to make science perform for them and prove their (mistaken) ideas that we live in a 6000 year old universe. They are the ones who end up having a beef with mainstream science which says that all the different epochs of the geologic column were consecutive not concurrent, and that light is much older than 6000 years when it comes from the furthest reaches of the galaxy. Instead of fighting these FACTS they should be thanking science for exposing the flaws in their exegesis.

I said
lol Facts???? I think it is a fact that no one can measure the distance in space. That is all theory. And the definition of theory is guessing. There is one very important fact in the bible. God created at a certain time everything already full grown. Man, woman, trees, fish, animals. So if they can trace time back to some sort of big bang by using what God has created. They always forget that is was created full grown. And no matter how much they believe their measurments of light, God can interviene and change it.
God created the earth full grown, and looking like it is a lot older than what it is.God said let there be light and there was light. God created everything with His Words. And He made them look a lot older than they really are. As a delusion to science.
 

Stripe

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LIFETIME MEMBER
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If you accept a physics-based Biblical account, then there was pressurised water inside the Earth, it broke forth in fountains to submerge everything, and flowed into ocean basins.

This is going to require some dramatic geomorphic changes.

1. If Everest was covered, that volume of water is never going to leave dry ground again. Thus Everest was pushed up in the flood.

2. If the ocean basins were extant, the water would have flowed straight into them, not covered the land for nearly a year. This the basins were pushed down during the flood.

3. Fountains out of the ground from such depths is going to bring up a great deal of sediment. This is most obviously the source of the kilometers-thick, global sedimentary layer.

4. This all happened about 4,500 years ago.

Are you sure you believe in the flood?

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