God - The Great Scientist

[6days]

Nothing about God knowing the future, except in the NORMAL way of deciding to do something, then having the power to do it.

Your god does not know the future.

The God of Scripture knows my past and future. (Yours also). He knows the day we were born, and He knows when we will die. Job 14:5


Iouae.... you worship a false God...a graven image of an experimenting God who makes mistakes. I worship the one true God. He is perfect.

 

[iouae]

Your god does not know the future.

The God of Scripture knows my past and future. (Yours also). He knows the day we were born, and He knows when we will die. Job 14:5


Iouae.... you worship a false God...a graven image of an experimenting God who makes mistakes. I worship the one true God. He is perfect.

Job 14:5 is saying that God has set the bounds of MANKIND'S lifespan, which is elaborated on in Psa 90:10
The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.


There is no mention of God setting individual lifespans in advance.

In fact, there are very many stories in the Bible, where decisions made by folks themselves determines when they die. King Hezekiah was granted 15 extra years, when God had told him he was about to die.

Let's say God (according to your reasoning) already knew Hezekiah would cry and plead and be granted 15 more years. This would make the God in your mind a liar when he sent Isaiah to tell Hezekiah he was about to die.

My God is allowed to change His mind and react according to what we do. If God told Hezekiah he was about to die, Hezekiah was about to die. But Hezekiah's reaction prompted God (who does not know the future) to respond and grant Hezekiah 15 extra years and not to be a liar in His first pronouncement.

But let me add this. God very seldom tells folks they are about to die. God probably knew that Hezekiah probably would react the way he did. The whole point of this story being in the Bible is to show us that we can prevail upon God to get Him to change His mind. Note that last phrase "change His mind". God was set on the death of Hezekiah if there was no turning to God on the part of Hezekiah.

Likewise Nineveh. If Nineveh had not turned to God, they WOULD have been toast in 40 days. But this story too is to tell us to prevail upon God to get Him to CHANGE HIS MIND.

Likewise the parable of the importunate widow. Luke 18:2

So the verse you quote is speaking about mankind in general, not any particular person's life in particular.

Again you reveal that your theology is based on fiction.

 

[iouae]

"Also known as Ediacaran biota, these are worldwide eukaryotic multi-cellular organisms. They were the earliest complex macroorganisms, and they were the beginning of the Cambrian Explosion. However, the Vendian organisms were almost completely replaced by the Cambrian organisms."

One epoch which sure looks like God was experimenting is the very first organisms of the Precambrian era.
Most of these organisms were created once, and then discarded. Their body pattern was maybe used in later Phyla, but most ediacarans never made it into the Cambrian, and only one or two survive till today. They were aquatic, and should easily have coped with a worldwide flood. Yet, this biota has all the characteristics of being prototypes, experiments, most of which were discarded, as God settled on the more familiar Cambrian plants and animals.

The Precambrian has all the hallmarks of a God who is experimenting with life.

 

[iouae]

If one looks at how other animals conduct themselves, they all seem to be born knowing how to behave and what to do. We might say, they come with hardware.

But human babies are born with big heads which grow even bigger once they are born, and their brains are filled with software, just waiting for the environment to program them.

Mom and Dad begins to program them. So does the extended family, society, the church etc.

Because we come with more programmable grey matter than any other beast, we are able to learn and copy others more than any other beast.

For the first half of human history there was no written word or Bible. In fact, for the first two thirds of human history or 4000 years out of 6000, there was no New Testament.

It was only after the New Testament was given, that folks had the means of being saved en masse.
We see, after the renaissance and the invention of the printing press, where everyone had access to the written Word, how this caused a huge advancement for Christianity.

I don't think it is an accident that most folks who have ever lived on earth have lived since the invention of the printing press, and after there was access to the Bible. Up to the great population growth of the 20th century, the world's population remained relatively small.

Word of mouth was all good and well for spreading the Gospel, but we all know that it was the letters written by the apostles which have made all the difference to salvation.

It was no accident that Paul was imprisoned. It was from prison that he was forced to write his epistles which comprise much of the New Testament today.

Writing and language are crucial to salvation. God saw that the Old Testament was not saving folks. Laws about clean and unclean foods and temple service were not producing the kind of believer He wanted. Animal sacrifices were useless at convincing folks of the seriousness of sin.

One has to admit that the New Covenant is completely different to the Old Covenant. Did God learn something from the first 4000 years of His dealing with mankind, that God had to scrap the Old Covenant and implement the New? Was the Old Covenant ineffective, in hindsight? Or was it the best idea at the time?

 

[Squeaky]

If one looks at how other animals conduct themselves, they all seem to be born knowing how to behave and what to do. We might say, they come with hardware.

But human babies are born with big heads which grow even bigger once they are born, and their brains are filled with software, just waiting for the environment to program them.

Mom and Dad begins to program them. So does the extended family, society, the church etc.

Because we come with more programmable grey matter than any other beast, we are able to learn and copy others more than any other beast.

For the first half of human history there was no written word or Bible. In fact, for the first two thirds of human history or 4000 years out of 6000, there was no New Testament.

It was only after the New Testament was given, that folks had the means of being saved en masse.
We see, after the renaissance and the invention of the printing press, where everyone had access to the written Word, how this caused a huge advancement for Christianity.

I don't think it is an accident that most folks who have ever lived on earth have lived since the invention of the printing press, and after there was access to the Bible. Up to the great population growth of the 20th century, the world's population remained relatively small.

Word of mouth was all good and well for spreading the Gospel, but we all know that it was the letters written by the apostles which have made all the difference to salvation.

It was no accident that Paul was imprisoned. It was from prison that he was forced to write his epistles which comprise much of the New Testament today.

Writing and language are crucial to salvation. God saw that the Old Testament was not saving folks. Laws about clean and unclean foods and temple service were not producing the kind of believer He wanted. Animal sacrifices were useless at convincing folks of the seriousness of sin.

One has to admit that the New Covenant is completely different to the Old Covenant. Did God learn something from the first 4000 years of His dealing with mankind, that God had to scrap the Old Covenant and implement the New? Was the Old Covenant ineffective, in hindsight? Or was it the best idea at the time?

I said
Does this help answer your question.

[Heb 8:6-9
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

 

[iouae]

I said
Does this help answer your question.

[Heb 8:6-9
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

Good scriptures Squeaky.

 

[Hawkins]

I said
Does this help answer your question.

[Heb 8:6-9
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.

This is the same saying that God regret creating the world. It's an out of context interpretation.

The fault of a covenant happens when it failed to identify the saved from the unsaved, or the righteous and the wicked. This is so because humans walk further away from God as time goes by. Under the circumstance, a new covenant will be in place such that it can again identify the righteous from the wicked.

This however has nothing to do with if God is perfect or not. It is a predicted behavior and that's why God has sorted out the solution even before the creation, and the solution is Jesus Christ.

 

[iouae]

This however has nothing to do with if God is perfect or not. It is a predicted behavior and that's why God has sorted out the solution even before the creation, and the solution is Jesus Christ.

Hawkins, in one sense you are completely right.

But the way you meant it is completely incorrect.

Yet everyone on this forum is going to agree with you, and they are all wrong in my humble opinion.

I would like you to bear with me while I try to explain why.

The solution IS Jesus, and God HAS sorted out the solution before the creation. But not in the sense that God foretold the future to every tiny detail. God had a broad idea as to how it would all play out. Even this big picture has turned out incorrect, and God has had to modify His plan as time rolled on.

At this point, all readers will be thinking I am nuts, almost blasphemous, and should watch what I say about God.

God had high expectations for man.
The creation of man is the crowning glory of His creation.
This is the first time God has created man.
Creating this crowning glory is hard, EVEN FOR GOD!
God mastered biology from of old. But we are the first to be created a blank slate (tabula rasa) and nurture and nature (genetics and environment) begins to write on us from birth.
Our baby brains are blank, but grow large after birth.
Not only must we learn to survive, God wants us to have a relationship with Him.
And we are born not knowing God.
God hopes, that somehow we will grow to know and love Him.
God tries to create a world which reflects His goodness.
But getting anyone converted to become a true Christian is hard.
Time and chance play a role, as the parable of the sower shows.
Young ones or new converts can become offended.
We can get overwhelmed by the cares of the world.
We can get infatuated with wealth and be oblivious to God.
We can get overcome by evil through bad company.
There are 360 degrees of choice, but only one of these leads to God, the other 359 will take us slowly away from Him.

Getting us saved is hard, even for God. I am not being blasphemous, but rather acknowledging the greatness of the task God has set Himself. It is a huge challenge.

This post is too long, but in a later one I want to explain how human weakness caught even God by surprise.
I also want to talk about how a perfect and incredibly able God copes with our weakness without tearing His hair out.

The scripture Squeaky quoted alluded to the problem God has with us in Heb 8:8 "Because finding fault with them..."

And at the flood, God repented Himself that He made man on the earth. God IS having serious regrets after seeing how weak mankind has turned out to be.
Gen 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

This is REAL REGRET showing God REALLY WAS caught by surprise.

1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

I used to think God was being modest admitting to weakness when He has none. But this verse is admitting that there are things which are hard even for God to accomplish.

Open your minds just a crack folks and entertain as a hypothesis that I may be right, even though every sermon you have ever heard has said that God has no challenges, everything is easy and known from the start by God.

 

[Hawkins]

Hawkins, in one sense you are completely right.

But the way you meant it is completely incorrect.

Yet everyone on this forum is going to agree with you, and they are all wrong in my humble opinion.

I would like you to bear with me while I try to explain why.

The solution IS Jesus, and God HAS sorted out the solution before the creation. But not in the sense that God foretold the future to every tiny detail. God had a broad idea as to how it would all play out. Even this big picture has turned out incorrect, and God has had to modify His plan as time rolled on.

At this point, all readers will be thinking I am nuts, almost blasphemous, and should watch what I say about God.

God had high expectations for man.
The creation of man is the crowning glory of His creation.
This is the first time God has created man.
Creating this crowning glory is hard, EVEN FOR GOD!
God mastered biology from of old. But we are the first to be created a blank slate (tabula rasa) and nurture and nature (genetics and environment) begins to write on us from birth.
Our baby brains are blank, but grow large after birth.
Not only must we learn to survive, God wants us to have a relationship with Him.
And we are born not knowing God.
God hopes, that somehow we will grow to know and love Him.
God tries to create a world which reflects His goodness.
But getting anyone converted to become a true Christian is hard.
Time and chance play a role, as the parable of the sower shows.
Young ones or new converts can become offended.
We can get overwhelmed by the cares of the world.
We can get infatuated with wealth and be oblivious to God.
We can get overcome by evil through bad company.
There are 360 degrees of choice, but only one of these leads to God, the other 359 will take us slowly away from Him.

Getting us saved is hard, even for God. I am not being blasphemous, but rather acknowledging the greatness of the task God has set Himself. It is a huge challenge.

This post is too long, but in a later one I want to explain how human weakness caught even God by surprise.
I also want to talk about how a perfect and incredibly able God copes with our weakness without tearing His hair out.

The scripture Squeaky quoted alluded to the problem God has with us in Heb 8:8 "Because finding fault with them..."

And at the flood, God repented Himself that He made man on the earth. God IS having serious regrets after seeing how weak mankind has turned out to be.
Gen 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

This is REAL REGRET showing God REALLY WAS caught by surprise.

1Co 1:25
Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

I used to think God was being modest admitting to weakness when He has none. But this verse is admitting that there are things which are hard even for God to accomplish.

Open your minds just a crack folks and entertain as a hypothesis that I may be right, even though every sermon you have ever heard has said that God has no challenges, everything is easy and known from the start by God.

The Bible does mention predestination. Predestination is a concept assuming God's omniscience. Deny this simply makes the word predestination meaningless. A correct concept needs to harmonized what is said across the whole Bible whenever possible. The Script is not broken.

So is the concept of the Book of Life of the Lamb.

 

[iouae]

The Bible does mention predestination. Predestination is a concept assuming God's omniscience. Deny this simply makes the word predestination meaningless. A correct concept needs to harmonized what is said across the whole Bible whenever possible. The Script is not broken.

So is the concept of the Book of Life of the Lamb.

Looking up all scriptures on predestination, they don't say God knows the future. What they say is that God predestined there would be a first fruit group of believers who would believe in Him unseen, followed by a group who would believe in the returned Jesus seen. Having predestined this broad plan, He then brought it to pass. Nothing spooky here. Just good planning. Just like we plan to build a house, then build it.

Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done.
Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 ➔ also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory:
Eph 1:5
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Look at all these scriptures above and none says God knows the future, but rather that He makes the future.

 

[6days]

For the first half of human history there was no written word....

That belief generally is from those who think they are smarter than the first humans. Chances are, Adam and first humans were more intelligent than us. (We have thousands of years of genetic load). The geneaologies and other information was likely in written form, and on the ark.

There is no mention of God setting individual lifespans in advance.

The God of the Bible knows us before we are conceived. Your God seems to be surprised by events. Job 14:5 "Seeing his days are determined..."

 

[George Affleck]

God is the "Great Scientist". This is a concept easy to understand for those whose life and work is involved with the true sciences.

In science we use scientific methods to experiment and learn and grow, till we attain better results. It is anathema for most Christians to entertain (even for a nanosecond) the idea that God may not know everything, and may be experimenting, learning and growing as time goes on. Because I am involved with science almost every day, I see in the Bible the evidence for a God who is a Great Scientist and who learns and grows and experiences the joy of an "Ah ha" moment when he discovers something new, or creates something particularly good.

I see God experimenting, learning and growing in the pages of the Bible, and in the geologic column. Hominids did not start out looking like Homo sapiens, but, with much genetic manipulation, watching how the results turned out, God finally settled on Homo sapiens as "good enough" to start creating beings in His likeness and after His image. I plan to explore this theme in this thread.

Your god is very small in comparison to the God of the Bible.
And what think you see on the pages of the Bible is your own image, not His.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That belief generally is from those who think they are smarter than the first humans. Chances are, Adam and first humans were more intelligent than us. (We have thousands of years of genetic load). The geneaologies and other information was likely in written form, and on the ark.

The God of the Bible knows us before we are conceived. Your God seems to be surprised by events. Job 14:5 "Seeing his days are determined..."

Could you provide a verse that says "before we are conceived"? I'm pretty sure they all say (the one's taking about God knowing us) "before we were born."

 

[Lon]

God is the "Great Scientist". It is anathema for most Christians to entertain (even for a nanosecond) the idea that God may not know everything, and may be experimenting, learning and growing as time goes on.

Yep, because scriptures says it ain't so. Only a few Open Theists and Mormons will appreciate your "Learning God" postulation.

Others are correct when they've responded you are making God in your own image rather than vise versa. Perhaps you are a good scientist, but not a very good theologian nor familiar with the content of the Bible. It is dead set against your theory so I'm dead set against it too. :e4e:

 

[George Affleck]

Could you provide a verse that says "before we are conceived"? I'm pretty sure they all say (the one's taking about God knowing us) "before we were born."

Jer 1:5KJV

 

[Lon]

Could you provide a verse that says "before we are conceived"? I'm pretty sure they all say (the one's taking about God knowing us) "before we were born."

Romans 9, Isaiah 7:15 And 1 Kings 13 described what Josiah would do 300 years into the future which was certainly before he was conceived :e4e:

 

[iouae]

Romans 9, Isaiah 7:15 And 1 Kings 13 described what Josiah would do 300 years into the future which was certainly before he was conceived :e4e:

And what God prophesied, He brought about. There is no "spookiness" of God knowing the future, but rather God determining that in 300 years time He wants a king called Josiah to do such and such and so motivates the parents to name the baby Josiah, and through the Holy Spirit, motivates Josiah to do such and such. Likewise Cyrus was foretold, that he would let the Israelites return to Jerusalem.

Just as God foretold Jeremiah and John the Baptist would be born at such and such a time to do such and such a job, and God made sure it happened by sending an angel to John's father, telling him to get on with it.

 

[iouae]

Looking up all scriptures on predestination, they don't say God knows the future. What they say is that God predestined there would be a first fruit group of believers who would believe in Him unseen, followed by a group who would believe in the returned Jesus seen. Having predestined this broad plan, He then brought it to pass. Nothing spooky here. Just good planning. Just like we plan to build a house, then build it.

Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done.

I do this every day when I determine to do something in the future.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 ➔ also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

God decided to have a first group, and a last group. The individual and specific details there is no mention that God knew names and details. Its a broad plan.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God devised the plan in the past, and here He is bringing it to pass in the present. Again no "spookiness" of having to know the future in detail.

1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory:

Before the world, God foretold our glory (immortality) and that is why He made the world. No spookiness.

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

See the theme - predestination is generally related to us first fruit and God predicting us, and then calling us and adopting us as His children. No spookiness of God knowing every detail of the future especially relating to other things.

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[/COLOR]

Again PREDESTINATION has to do with God destining before (PRE-) that there would be a first fruit generation.

Look at all these scriptures above and none says God knows the future, but rather that He makes the future.

This predestination doctrine got completely distorted to mean God knows the future, whereas it almost always relates to God knew there would be us first fruits, and He is bringing it to pass. Absolutely no spookiness which implies God knows the future in detail, but every indication that God has a plan, and sticks to it.

In a nutshell then, predestination always refers to PLANNED PARENTHOOD on the part of God.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Jer 1:5KJV

Nope. Says born, and "before I formed you in the womb" implies there's something there to form.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” - Jeremiah 1:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah1:5&version=NKJV

"Formed" in that verse is the word yatsar, meaning to mould or to form.

If it was conception, the word would have been harah.

Romans 9,

Verse 11?

(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), - Romans 9:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans9:11&version=NKJV

Gennao means to be born, or to be begotten. It is not translated as "concieved" in the Bible.

Isaiah 7:15

Then he said, “Hear now, O house of David! Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.The Lord will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father’s house—days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah.” - Isaiah 7:13-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah7:13-17&version=NKJV

Considering that God knew God the Son already prior to His incarnation, because He existed BEFORE the incarnation, I'm gonna go ahead and throw this one out, as God announcing His plans for His Son, who is God, it's a completely different situation, as there was never a point where the Son never existed. Humans are different, in that our existence begins at conception.

And 1 Kings 13 described what Josiah would do 300 years into the future which was certainly before he was conceived :e4e:

So, all God needs to do is tell the future Josiah's parents to name him Josiah, and then guide Josiah along in life.

How is that knowing Josiah before-hand?

 

[George Affleck]

Nope. Says born, and "before I formed you in the womb" implies there's something there to form.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.” - Jeremiah 1:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah1:5&version=NKJV

"Formed" in that verse is the word yatsar, meaning to mould or to form.

If it was conception, the word would have been harah.

Well, technically, there is something there to form prior to conception.
The unfertilized egg of the mother.

Isa 43:21KJV is an example of the same word, in the same format. And yet there was a time, before "this people" became a people that God was bringing to pass that which was necessary for them to become such. That time was in Abraham. It was not a convenient accident that God used to His advantage.

Conception is an interesting word. Were we conceived of our own doing or does God conceive of us and then bring it to pass?
There is certainly the problem of time here. God is not constrained by time/space the way we are. He operates both inside and outside of time. Whatever He does can be said to be done now by our standards and from eternity by His. This is the essence of predestination.