Cruciform
New member
Agreed.
ECT FAITH ALONE: DID JESUS TEACH IT?
- Thread starter Cruciform
- Start date
beloved57
Well-known member
Your religion is different from mine and what the bible teaches, for you teach the damnable heresy of salvation by works, by what a person does !
Cruciform
New member
Funny how you---and every other competing and contradictory Protestant sect---equate your preferred sect's opinions with "what the Bible teaches."
The Catholic teaching regarding salvation---which was believed and taught by Christ's one historic Church for fifteen centuries before a single Protestant ever managed to stumble onto the scene---is outlined here and here. And it is demonstrably the authentic "biblical teaching."
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach salvation by works, by what a person does!
Interplanner
Well-known member
But Gratia infusa is not compatible with gratia imputa. There is a fatal pull away from imputation/crediting in all mankind, so there is no wonder that 1, the church slunk toward that for 1500 years, or 2, that the Protestant sector tends to miss it as well (they do). It may indeed be what Daniel meant when he referred to 'truth was cast down to the ground.'
So long as people say God's primary redemptive activity is realized in the worshipper's own experience, there will be competition and contradiction; each one will 'compare themselves with themselves' and say 'no, that's not how God works.' Justification says God's saving activity is found in the Christ event itself, and the way that gets to the worshipper is by crediting or transfer; it solves our debt. It creates sensations in our experience, but those sensations are not the objective reality of it.
God's Truth
New member
It is never ever a damnable heresy to obey Jesus.
The problem is, you teach we cannot obey---and the Catholics teach things which go against what God says.
God's Truth
New member
False teachers were around in Paul and Peter's time. So then, why do you take comfort in your denomination for being old?
God's Truth
New member
From where did Luther and Calvin come?
They were both Catholics.
Luther did not go far enough with the reform, and Calvin made the mistake of adding things which not be added.
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that damnable heresy of salvation by works!
Cruciform
New member
Already answered (Post #183).
Cruciform
New member
Proof, please.
Cruciform
New member
Not at all. The Catholic Church has always believed and taught both. See the cited sources in Post #183 above.
beloved57
Well-known member
So, you still teach that heresy!
beloved57
Well-known member
The jesus you obey is a figment of your imagination, so yes it is heresy to obey him.
Cruciform
New member
Because the Catholic Church is that one historic Church founded by Jesus Christ himself, and against which he declared that the gates of Hades would never prevail (Mt. 16:18-19). This one historic Church is therefore the only Church established by Christ to guide and teach the faithful in his own name and by his very authority (Mt. 28:18-20; 1 Tim. 3:15).
As far as there having been false teachers in the early Church:
"...apostolic succession affirms that Christian truths were accurately transmitted within the Church, so that the teachings of any Church authority at any time could be traced back in an unbroken chain to the apostles, and through them to Jesus himself. You knew you could trust the teachings of your bishop because he would have gotten his teachings from his predecessor, and so on, going all the way back to Christ.
"To be sure, as we have already noted, some bishops did deviate from what they had received and to that extent they are considered heretics. But that's the point. When they were faithful to the Tradition, their teachings were trustworthy. So this is not to claim that there was never dissent or disagreement in the early Church---indeed there was, and it was precisely this disagreement that led to the discussion of theological concepts, ans eventually to authoritative decisions about how to understand the person and work of Jesus Christ, and how to interpret Scripture. Eventually the debates led to councils of bishops, the successors of the apostles gathering to clarify the correct interpretations of Jesus' intentions for the church and of the apostolic writings. These conclusions of the early Church Fathers and the councils of bishops were confirmed as the dogmas of Christianity---the theological positions that were consistent with the conclusions of the previous generations, going all the way back to the apostles" (James Papandrea, HANDED DOWN: The Catholic Faith of the Early Christians [Catholic Answers Press, 2015], pp. 14-15).
"To be sure, as we have already noted, some bishops did deviate from what they had received and to that extent they are considered heretics. But that's the point. When they were faithful to the Tradition, their teachings were trustworthy. So this is not to claim that there was never dissent or disagreement in the early Church---indeed there was, and it was precisely this disagreement that led to the discussion of theological concepts, ans eventually to authoritative decisions about how to understand the person and work of Jesus Christ, and how to interpret Scripture. Eventually the debates led to councils of bishops, the successors of the apostles gathering to clarify the correct interpretations of Jesus' intentions for the church and of the apostolic writings. These conclusions of the early Church Fathers and the councils of bishops were confirmed as the dogmas of Christianity---the theological positions that were consistent with the conclusions of the previous generations, going all the way back to the apostles" (James Papandrea, HANDED DOWN: The Catholic Faith of the Early Christians [Catholic Answers Press, 2015], pp. 14-15).
I highly recommend this informed and well-written text:
J. Papandrea, HANDED DOWN: The Catholic Faith of the Early Christians (Catholic Answers Press, 2015)
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
God's Truth
New member
It is never ever heresy to obey God.
beloved57
Well-known member
You don't believe in Jesus Christ, you teach salvation by works, a damnable heresy!
Cruciform
New member
Sorry, but no man-made religious sect that didn't even exist until the 16th century possesses the doctrinal authority to declare what is and is not "heresy" on behalf of Christians in general. Nice try, though.
beloved57
Well-known member
You still teach salvation by works, by what a person does!