Denial of the deity of Jesus

KingdomRose

New member
Keypurr, you do realize that you have an unhealthy obsession with this issue? It's not accurate to say that the Trinity was simply imported into Christianity like the Pagan atonement doctrine was. Jesus said things about his own identity, powers and authority which left believers with the realization that he is Gods divine Son. You may wish that not to be the case and simply ignore Jesus own words but it wont change what the truth actually is

I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, and yet I believe that Jesus is God's Son. He doesn't have to be equal with the Father to be God's Son. He stated clearly that he was God's SON, not God, and that he could not do anything unless the Father GAVE him the power and knowledge to speak or act. (John 5:19) Keypurr is correct when he says that the trinity doctrine was imported into pure worship from pagan sources.
 

Apple7

New member
I do not believe in the trinity doctrine, and yet I believe that Jesus is God's Son. He doesn't have to be equal with the Father to be God's Son.

He does when He is monogenes.




He stated clearly that he was God's SON, not God, and that he could not do anything unless the Father GAVE him the power and knowledge to speak or act. (John 5:19)

Why are you so deathly afraid to show context?

Does your worldview stand or fall based upon plucking a verse here, and a verse there, out of context?

Or...

Is your attention span so short, that you can't be bothered with context?





Keypurr is correct when he says that the trinity doctrine was imported into pure worship from pagan sources.

Pops is on the right-hand-side of eighty and couldn't care less about studying the original languages.

Just like tardly JW's, he can only stand on his lonely soapbox and mindlessly repeat his unsupported worldview.


Interesting, and very telling, that you would want to align your worldview with his...
 

Elia

Well-known member
Jesus is DIVINE, but not part of a "godhead" or a trinity of gods.

Bs"d

A divine person is by definition a god.

If you have a "God the Father" and a "god the son", then you have two gods, and that is polytheism and idolatry.


"Serve Y-H-W-H! And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!
.

Joshua 24:14-15
 

Elia

Well-known member
Interesting, and very telling, that you would want to align your worldview with his...

Bs"d

Interesting and telling that you want to align your world view with a statue worshipping church and paganism.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
I guess the question becomes do you know who it is who you worship? :idunno:

Yes, the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ and all believers

John 20:17

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
I wasn't using worship as the meaning behind that post.

But since you brought it up, I have no idea how you use the word worship in your life.

Since worship as used in scripture as a broad term that would be a good concept to explore.

The OT word is used both of worshiping or honoring God and men

It simply means to bend the knee before someone. An act of humility showing the superiority of the other who is being so honored.

Since OT believers honored other men, it is not a problem to honor those superior to us. Hence we call them "sir", or "your Honor" or "Mrs." etc.
 

Elia

Well-known member
Jews invented paganism and idol worship.

Bs"d

Is that your excuse for worshipping in a church full of graven images?

"And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, Y-H-W-H your God, am a jealous God"
Ex 20

"And Laban said to Jacob: “What have you done, that you have stolen away unknown to me, and carried away my daughters like captives taken with the sword? 27 Why did you flee away secretly, and steal away from me, and not tell me; for I might have sent you away with joy and songs, with timbrel and harp? 28 And you did not allow me to kiss my sons and my daughters. Now you have done foolishly in so doing. 29 It is in my power to do you harm, but the God of your father spoke to me last night, saying, ‘Be careful that you speak to Jacob neither good nor bad.’ 30 And now you have surely gone because you greatly long for your father’s house, but why did you steal my gods?”
Gen 31

Oh look! Long before there were any Jews, people already worshipped idols.

Yet more nonsense debunked.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 

Apple7

New member
Is that your excuse for worshipping in a church full of graven images?


I am free to worship The Triune God anywhere I want to.

In fact, Jesus said that my bedroom is a great place.


I'm certainly not going to pray to a wall like Jews do...
 

Apple7

New member

Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods. How can it be that Jews proclaim the worship of one true God when all the way through their book of faith they repeatedly worshiped a whole multitude of false gods?!


Lev 17.5 - 7

The reason which may bring the sons of Israel their sacrifices which they were sacrificing in the open field may bring to Yahweh at the doorway of the meeting tent to the priest and sacrifice sacrifices of peace to Yahweh. The priest shall sprinkle the blood on the altar of Yahweh at the doorway of the tent of the meeting and offer the fat soothing aroma to Yahweh. And they shall no longer sacrifice their sacrifices to the devils which they play after; this shall be a permanent statute likewise throughout their generations.


Judges 10.6

Again the sons of Israel did evil in the sight of Yahweh and worshiped the Baals and the Ashtaroth and the gods of Aram and the gods of Sidon and the gods of Moab and the gods of the sons of Ammon and the gods of the Philistines and forsook Yahweh and did not worship Him.



For thousands upon thousands of years the Jews worshipped an untold number of gods. Given this horrible, rock-bottom track record, how in the world can a modern-day Jew proclaim to be worshipping the creator God of the Universe, as He intended, with any certainty at all?

Clearly, there would have been no need for the Jews to feel the need to fabricate multiple gods, unless they had already been exposed to a uni-plural Creator of which they could not comprehend even to this very day.

Yahweh has always revealed Himself as Triune. Many misled early Jews saw this revelation and ran with it…making a multiplicity of separate gods…not being cognizant that the God revealed in their scriptures invokes plurality in one God.

The NT records that many Jews immediately understood that Jesus was God in the flesh. How then would this be possible – unless they had a very good understanding of the OT scriptures and knew that Yahweh had already manifested Himself in the flesh to the prophets?

Only Trinitarian Christians are able to see the Creator God was He has revealed Himself.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Just look at how the Jews disobeyed Yahweh and were given-up to the worship of idols, demons and false gods.
Yes, that happened, but it does not make this statement of yours true:

Jews invented paganism and idol worship.

It is a flat out lie that Jews invented paganism and idol worship.

The first Jew was Judah, the son of Jacob and Leah.
In the story of Jacob, his second wife Rachel stole the 'gods' of her father Laban.
This proves that there was idol worship before the Jews.

Also, when the children of Israel were travelling to the land of Canaan, they were warned not to adopt the practices of the pagan idol worshipers living in the land, which shows that paganism and idol worship were already present in the land of Canaan before the Jews entered into it.

Get your facts straight.
 

Apple7

New member
Yes, that happened, but it does not make this statement of yours true:



It is a flat out lie that Jews invented paganism and idol worship.

The first Jew was Judah, the son of Jacob and Leah.
In the story of Jacob, his second wife Rachel stole the 'gods' of her father Laban.
This proves that there was idol worship before the Jews.

Also, when the children of Israel were travelling to the land of Canaan, they were warned not to adopt the practices of the pagan idol worshipers living in the land, which shows that paganism and idol worship were already present in the land of Canaan before the Jews entered into it.

Get your facts straight.

Semantics.

Then call them Hebrews.
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Semantics.

Then call them Hebrews.

When the Habiru entered Egypt, the Egyptians were already pagans that were worshiping idols.

All the idol worship and paganism shown by the children of Israel only happened when they started following the examples of the nations around them.

The Jews did not invent paganism nor idol worship.
 

Apple7

New member
When the Habiru entered Egypt, the Egyptians were already pagans that were worshiping idols.

All the idol worship and paganism shown by the children of Israel only happened when they started following the examples of the nations around them.

The Jews did not invent paganism nor idol worship.

They most certainly did.
 

Elia

Well-known member
I am free to worship The Triune God anywhere I want to.

Bs"d

Except in front of a statue: "And God spoke all these words, saying:
2 “I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 You shall have no other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, Y-H-W-H your God, am a jealous God"
Ex 20

And of course; there is no such a thing as a "triune God".

There is only the one and only God Y-H-W-H who is ONE:


שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד


Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is
ONE.​

And you shall love Y-H-W-H your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart;
and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise.
And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
And you shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
Deut 6:4-9

The Jews until this day fulfill this commandment. Every morning they put upon their arm and upon their forehead their phylacteries, (prayer belts) that consist of black straps with black leather cubes, that contain parchment upon which is written this Biblical text that says that God is one. Upon the doorposts of the houses of the religious Jews there are small boxes or containers that also contain parchment upon which is written that God is one. During the morning and evening prayers the above text is recited which says that God is one.

I'm certainly not going to pray to a wall like Jews do...

Well, that's what the righteous king Hezekiah did. And God listened to him: "In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, “This is what Y-H-W-H says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover.”
2 Hezekiah turned his face to the wall and prayed to Y-H-W-H, 3 “Remember, Y-H-W-H, how I have walked before you faithfully and with wholehearted devotion and have done what is good in your eyes.” And Hezekiah wept bitterly.
4 Before Isaiah had left the middle court, the word of Y-H-W-H came to him: 5 “Go back and tell Hezekiah, the ruler of my people, ‘This is what Y-H-W-H , the God of your father David, says: I have heard your prayer and seen your tears; I will heal you."
2 Kings 20



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".

Micah 4:5
 
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