"Demonic possession," or mental illness?

Town Heretic

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I believe in possession for the same reason I believe in the resurrection and I don't believe that Jesus threw mental illness into swine. So, what am I left with? An approach born of two particular certainties. First, that God exists and that His context is the means by which the world and our lives are properly understood and second, that within that context science is a remarkably helpful tool for addressing mechanism and particular, to the extent of its limitations.

Does it follow that I don't believe in mental illness? Of course not. I've seen its impact on friends, one of whom was committed and another who has struggled with bipolar disorder and managed to find peace with the help of medical assistance. He runs a mission. Does it follow that the existence of mental illness precludes the existence of possession? Of course not. Should we pursue the known first? Of course we should.

There was a time when men thought physical deformity and sickness itself was a spiritual matter. Some still do, but science has given us a deeper understanding of our biological mechanism and psychiatry has attempted and is attempting to do the same with our understanding of how that biology impacts and is impacted in terms of behavior/cognition. Much of it is to the good and helpful.


Beyond scripture I think of M. Scott Peck, the late and famous author of The Road Less Traveled. He was an atheist then Buddhist (including the time when this first and likely most famous was written) and then became a Christian by his early 40s and remained so until his death. Peck was a Harvard trained physician and a psychiatrist who, as so many among either set will, held the notion that demonic possession was simply and entirely a misdiagnosis by the superstitious of a fractured mind, even after his conversion.

"I had come to believe in the reality of benign spirit or God, as well as the reality of human goodness. I'd come to believe distinctly in the reality of human evil, and that left me an obvious hole in my thinking. Namely was there such a thing as evil spirit, or the devil specifically? In common with 99.99 percent of psychiatrists and with 80 percent of Catholic priests--as confidentially polled back in 1960, the figure would be much higher now--I did not believe in the devil."


He held that view for some time. Then he had experiences that his training could not, to his mind, account for. He wrote briefly about them in People of the Lie, an excellent book itself, but followed with Glimpses of the Devil, which dealt directly with the topic at hand. I think it might help you widen the net.
 

Hawkins

Active member
Certain spirits in Hades have obsession about a human body which they once owned one. They are keen on learning how to possess a human body. On the other hand, since certain angels know how to 'control' a human body because one of their jobs is to appear bodily as humans. As a result, certain fallen angels know how to do so.

The contact of the evil spirits starts with an invitation. The spirits in Hades are not allowed to actively contact humans in our realm. However, when humans try to contact them (as a sin), it becomes possible to establish a link between humans and the spirits. Human sinning is always allowed on earth. Somehow, human 'invitation' usually take place in remote area or less civilized area where people believe such things superstitiously.

The spirits in Hades thus explore both, they acquired the ability from the fallen angels on how to possess humans, and they tried their best for humans to make an invitation to establish the 'link'.

This is the situation before Jesus time. After Jesus conquered death. It's possible that stricter rules are applied that to avoid this to be triggered by a sinful invitation which usually without the consent from the human side (humans who made such an invitation may be without their own awareness at all). Humans may still be able to send an invitation with consent, say, by playing demon boards and etc.

On the other hand, as human population grows less and less areas are considered 'remote' or 'less civilized' in favor of such a kind of invitations. This makes the true demonic possession cases really scarce today.

By the very nature of history, no one can go back to the time before Jesus to acquire the evidence. You need very strong faith in order to apply today's situation to the time before Jesus to draw the conclusion that demon possession as a whole never occurred. The situation is similar to the practicing of black magic by the witches. You won't find such a witch today, it however by no means says that they did not exist in the past.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
"Just enough"?? Wow.....on the verage, 21,000 children die each day around the world from preventable causes. I'm not even going to into the other horrid stuff that happens daily to the people who had nothing to do with Adam. (OK< so Adam is a ficitonal / mythical character, but let's pretend that the legend was true, just for the sake of the conversation.) Let me repeat the question - what did these CHILDREN do to deserve this? I can see how G-d is just looking down, with folded arms (while a child suffers and dies), "wll, kiddo, you got what was coming to ya"!!! :)

What did we do to deserve a chance at life and love?

Go create some robots. Program them to do what you want. Any relational love created? Arguing with God, wether it is good to allow evil in the hopes of love being created is futile. Most love love their freedom and desire love, but disdain the creator of it all. You love children and want to protect them. Awesome!!! Go do it!
 

serpentdove

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What did we do to deserve a chance at life and love?

Go create some robots. Program them to do what you want. Any relational love created? Arguing with God, whether it is good to allow evil in the hopes of love being created is futile...
It's not sin to allow for sin. Ge 1:31
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
Certain spirits in Hades have obsession about a human body which they once owned one. They are keen on learning how to possess a human body. On the other hand, since certain angels know how to 'control' a human body because one of their jobs is to appear bodily as humans. As a result, certain fallen angels know how to do so.

The contact of the evil spirits starts with an invitation. The spirits in Hades are not allowed to actively contact humans in our realm. However, when humans try to contact them (as a sin), it becomes possible to establish a link between humans and the spirits. Human sinning is always allowed on earth. Somehow, human 'invitation' usually take place in remote area or less civilized area where people believe such things superstitiously.

The spirits in Hades thus explore both, they acquired the ability from the fallen angels on how to possess humans, and they tried their best for humans to make an invitation to establish the 'link'.

This is the situation before Jesus time. After Jesus conquered death. It's possible that stricter rules are applied that to avoid this to be triggered by a sinful invitation which usually without the consent from the human side (humans who made such an invitation may be without their own awareness at all). Humans may still be able to send an invitation with consent, say, by playing demon boards and etc.

On the other hand, as human population grows less and less areas are considered 'remote' or 'less civilized' in favor of such a kind of invitations. This makes the true demonic possession cases really scarce today.

By the very nature of history, no one can go back to the time before Jesus to acquire the evidence. You need very strong faith in order to apply today's situation to the time before Jesus to draw the conclusion that demon possession as a whole never occurred. The situation is similar to the practicing of black magic by the witches. You won't find such a witch today, it however by no means says that they did not exist in the past.

There some that practice black witchcraft and Satanic worship today.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
The story of the unclean spirit that is named Legion that is cast into the pigs is interesting. I do however you miss the point of the story if you interpret it as a literal story of an unclean spirit, rather than a story with symbolic significance. The name Legion is not a coincidence to first century Jews living under Roman occupation.

How are we to conceive of possession in the first place? Even a more sophisticated conception of the demonic as fallen forms of intellect. How do they possess another being? Maybe you can conceive of them as influences on human intellects as temptation. But to speak of possession is to say that one mind is at least temporarily consumed or subjugated by another. How do you conceive of that?

You do not even have to rule out the existence of the demonic even if you are skeptical of the concept of possession.
 

serpentdove

BANNED
Banned
Agreed. Just showing the faulty logic.
Some will blame God for sin being in the world--God made me a sinner. It's his fault (Ge 3:12).

What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy (Ro 9:22–23A).
 

George Affleck

TOL Subscriber
"Just enough"?? Wow.....on the verage, 21,000 children die each day around the world from preventable causes. I'm not even going to into the other horrid stuff that happens daily to the people who had nothing to do with Adam.

You plant a garden in your backyard. Do the plants have a judicial right to pass judgement on your decisions of when to weed it, water it, prune it, or how to harvest? Does the creation know more than the Creator? If, as the Bible asserts, for those who love God, physical death is the beginning of an eternity of perfection with Him, our concern should be to show everyone the love and mercy of God so as not to block their way to Him, not to deny His existence. Atheists attempt to involve as many others as possible in their foolishness in order to make them as unprofitable to God as they are; perpetuating the original blunder. You are deliberately walking the wrong side of the street and you imagine you can blame God for that.

Your suggestion that we have nothing to do with Adam is like saying; "I bought a package of carrot seeds for my garden, but, of course, I don't expect them to be carrots at all. In fact, they may turn out to be cabbages for all I know." Seeds carry the characteristics of their parents, in case you hadn't noticed.

(OK< so Adam is a ficitonal / mythical character, but let's pretend that the legend was true, just for the sake of the conversation.) Let me repeat the question - what did these CHILDREN do to deserve this?

Deserve? As an atheist, you do not get to borrow Biblical values of justice and right and wrong to argue your worldview. These values belong to believers and the Bible. If you wish to argue justice, please formulate your own values from your own beliefs and present them if you can. To be consistent, you cannot argue right and wrong because, for you, there is, objectively, no such thing except permanent values you covertly steal from God.

And, whatever you do, do not use the magical word "self-evident". In the atheistic religion, there is no such thing nor is there agreement concerning it.

I can see how G-d is just looking down, with folded arms (while a child suffers and dies), "wll, kiddo, you got what was coming to ya"!!! :)

You are misled simply because you don't want to know what the Bible really says. This childish image is your own fabrication. You want the God of the Bible to be unfair so you can justify your position. Your question is the same as; "If God is good, why do bad things happen?". This question has been answered a million times over and you will have no part of it because you prefer your ignorance.

God will never judge unfairly. If He could, He would not be the God of the Bible. You have fashioned a weak, impotent, facsimile, overlayed it with brass, and when it does not meet your expectations, you reject it. The problem is that your choice, from the beginning, was to manufacture a god that you would not like.
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
The story of the unclean spirit that is named Legion that is cast into the pigs is interesting. I do however you miss the point of the story if you interpret it as a literal story of an unclean spirit, rather than a story with symbolic significance. The name Legion is not a coincidence to first century Jews living under Roman occupation.

How are we to conceive of possession in the first place? Even a more sophisticated conception of the demonic as fallen forms of intellect. How do they possess another being? Maybe you can conceive of them as influences on human intellects as temptation. But to speak of possession is to say that one mind is at least temporarily consumed or subjugated by another. How do you conceive of that?

You do not even have to rule out the existence of the demonic even if you are skeptical of the concept of possession.

The bible is clear the material body is a dwelling place. In the case of those in Christ, a temple for God, as an adopted Son born of His Holy Spirit. The alternative of a demon dwelling can then be seen.

Trying to wrap our brains around the Spiritual realm will not happen. Just as us fully understanding God. Physicists theorize of parallel realities in other dimensions. But we have limited abilities to understand all that is.
 

Hawkins

Active member
There some that practice black witchcraft and Satanic worship today.

I think that it's more spiritual in nature than magical as in the past. Knowledge requires accumulation, it requires the whole thing to be really active for such a kind of knowledge to be acquired. A bunch of them claim practicing it by no means says that they can actually acquire the knowledge. Some of the secrets may be long lost. Of course, it's still possible that some can acquire it from some kind of ancient scrolls written down at the time when the witches/black magics were truly active.
 

Hawkins

Active member
The story of the unclean spirit that is named Legion that is cast into the pigs is interesting. I do however you miss the point of the story if you interpret it as a literal story of an unclean spirit, rather than a story with symbolic significance. The name Legion is not a coincidence to first century Jews living under Roman occupation.

How are we to conceive of possession in the first place? Even a more sophisticated conception of the demonic as fallen forms of intellect. How do they possess another being? Maybe you can conceive of them as influences on human intellects as temptation. But to speak of possession is to say that one mind is at least temporarily consumed or subjugated by another. How do you conceive of that?

You do not even have to rule out the existence of the demonic even if you are skeptical of the concept of possession.

That depends on how you comprehend the functionality of a soul. A soul resides on the other side/realm which somehow can be readily accessible.

The use of "Legion" is to illustrate that a human can be 'occupied' by multiple spirits.
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Are you a biblical literalist? Jonah in the belly of the whale, for example?

Yes I am. Now if you mean by literal something wooden that ignores the surrounding context, genre, etc., then no. The account of Jonah is historical narrative, so unless one denies the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, there is no other interpretation other than the Jonah account actually happened. To claim the Jonah account is allegory or metaphor ignores the context and lack of textual clues supporting said views. To claim the account is merely God accommodating finite minds implies God's penmen were permitted error under the guidance of the Spirit as they wrote. The text in question (the narrative of Jonah) does not pertain to different perspectives in a narrative, but to narration. To claim there is inspired and uninspired speech in the narration is to claim that the penmen were not fully inspired.

Every proper exposition of the doctrine of inspiration of the Bible at least includes within it an affirmation that the errors of the penmen were suppressed. I don't need to know the single true interpretation of every passage in order to affirm the doctrine of plenary inspiration. This point is not open to debate. To claim otherwise is to affirm that the narrator's lack of knowledge found its way into the text of Scripture. Yikes!

AMR
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
Yes I am. Now if you mean by literal something wooden that ignores the surrounding context, genre, etc., then no. The account of Jonah is historical narrative, so unless one denies the verbal plenary inspiration of the Bible, there is no other interpretation other than the Jonah account actually happened. To claim the Jonah account is allegory or metaphor ignores the context and lack of textual clues supporting said views. To claim the account is merely God accommodating finite minds implies God's penmen were permitted error under the guidance of the Spirit as they wrote. The text in question (the narrative of Jonah) does not pertain to different perspectives in a narrative, but to narration. To claim there is inspired and uninspired speech in the narration is to claim that the penmen were not fully inspired.

Every proper exposition of the doctrine of inspiration of the Bible at least includes within it an affirmation that the errors of the penmen were suppressed. I don't need to know the single true interpretation of every passage in order to affirm the doctrine of plenary inspiration. This point is not open to debate. To claim otherwise is to affirm that the narrator's lack of knowledge found its way into the text of Scripture. Yikes!

AMR

Thank you. I don't believe the story of Jonah in the whale. I know I'm not alone in that; I don't know how you'd debate the issue with a theologian who doesn't view it as a literal narration, and I'm aware that I don't have the ability to do that.
 

annabenedetti

like marbles on glass
I believe in possession for the same reason I believe in the resurrection and I don't believe that Jesus threw mental illness into swine. So, what am I left with?

I don't think for a believer that those are the only two choices you have. You could believe in the resurrection and believe the swine running over the cliff are an ancient people's allegorical use of a natural event.

Does it follow that I don't believe in mental illness? Of course not.
Nor would I make that assumption.
There was a time when men thought physical deformity and sickness itself was a spiritual matter. Some still do, but science has given us a deeper understanding of our biological mechanism and psychiatry has attempted and is attempting to do the same with our understanding of how that biology impacts and is impacted in terms of behavior/cognition. Much of it is to the good and helpful.
That's where I'm going with this.

Beyond scripture I think of M. Scott Peck, the late and famous author of The Road Less Traveled. He was an atheist then Buddhist (including the time when this first and likely most famous was written) and then became a Christian by his early 40s and remained so until his death. Peck was a Harvard trained physician and a psychiatrist who, as so many among either set will, held the notion that demonic possession was simply and entirely a misdiagnosis by the superstitious of a fractured mind, even after his conversion.

"I had come to believe in the reality of benign spirit or God, as well as the reality of human goodness. I'd come to believe distinctly in the reality of human evil, and that left me an obvious hole in my thinking. Namely was there such a thing as evil spirit, or the devil specifically? In common with 99.99 percent of psychiatrists and with 80 percent of Catholic priests--as confidentially polled back in 1960, the figure would be much higher now--I did not believe in the devil."


He held that view for some time. Then he had experiences that his training could not, to his mind, account for. He wrote briefly about them in People of the Lie, an excellent book itself, but followed with Glimpses of the Devil, which dealt directly with the topic at hand. I think it might help you widen the net.
I remember reading The People of the Lie and talking about it here. I'd been uncomfortable with the book as it headed in the direction of exorcism, and now that three semesters of psychology separate me from the first reading of it, I suspect I'd find it even more troubling on a second reading - but here's what I wrote a year and a half ago:

I've finished it now, and have to say I liked the first half better than the last half because in the later chapters he gets into demon possession and I have reservations about some of what he said.

Also, his psychoanalytical approach to psychology was by definition Freudian and much of Freud's theories that Peck refers to have been discarded/discounted by psychologists today and a couple things he said in reference to the Oedipus complex and also his therapy methods, what he did or would do, were disturbing. It was at that chapter that I started pulling back.

Also, and this may not seem like much, he said in the preface of the book that he used a neuter pronoun for Satan. Oddly, he also used a neuter pronoun for children:

"Treated badly by its parents, a child will usually assume that it is bad."

Overall, I have very mixed thoughts.
 
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Angel4Truth

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What if there is no such thing as "demonic possession?"

Do you believe this to be a lie then?

Mark 5:1-20
Jesus Restores a Demon-Possessed Man

5 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. 2 When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3 This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. 4 For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5 Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7 He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” 8 For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

9 Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

“My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” 10 And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12 The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” 13 He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15 When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16 Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17 Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19 Jesus did not let him, but said, “Go home to your own people and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you.” 20 So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed.

Perhaps heeding the words of the Lord, would be better than heeding the many voices working against Him.
 

Angel4Truth

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See my above to TH.

Doesnt adress that Jesus spoke of Demon possession Himself. Do you believe His words were made up?

Matthew 12:43-45

When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none. Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

Matthew 17:14-20
And when they came to the crowd, a man came up to him and, kneeling before him, said, “Lord, have mercy on my son, for he is an epileptic and he suffers terribly. For often he falls into the fire, and often into the water. And I brought him to your disciples, and they could not heal him.” And Jesus answered, “O faithless and twisted generation, how long am I to be with you? How long am I to bear with you? Bring him here to me.” And Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of him, and the boy was healed instantly. ...

Matthew 10:1

And He called to him His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction.

I could post more, but please do tell us what you believe is being said in these, are they made up?
 

StanJ

New member
I don't think for a believer that those are the only two choices you have. You could believe in the resurrection and believe the swine running over the cliff are an ancient people's allegorical use of a natural event.

Nor would I make that assumption.
That's where I'm going with this.

I remember reading The People of the Lie and talking about it here. I'd been uncomfortable with the book as it headed in the direction of exorcism, and now that three semesters of psychology separate me from the reading of it, I suspect I'd find it even more troubling - but here's what I wrote a year and a half ago:


WOW....talk about mental gymnastics!
 
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