Maricopa county ballot audit begins today

[Derf]

Okay, firstly, thanks for the acknowledgement regarding Trump/Russia

No problem.

and with regards to these supposedly deleted files then the main point of argument seems to be that there was something underhand or even illegal about this even if true. That hasn't been established, conclusively at any rate

That remains to be seen, whether something underhanded was done with the files. My point was that despite the deletion of the files being reiterated by Cotton, none of your news sites have yet admitted any files were deleted. That is EXACTLY the main point of MY argument. And even though you don’t want to acknowledge it, you have perpetuated the false concept that no files were deleted, and you continue to do so, despite numerous attempts on my part to enlighten you. That’s where false witness comes in.

and even Cotton is on record for saying it's moot because all data was recoverable. Wasn't so much a case of files being deleted but auditors simply looking for them in the wrong place.

He didn’t say it was moot, nor did he say that the files weren’t deleted and were just not where they looked for them, as your 1st link contends. He specifically said they were deleted, but there was no need to request them of Maricopa Cty again, because they had been recovered (which from the first meant that they had been deleted). The question is still open whether a federal crime was committed by someone by deleting those files—but your news sites would never want to let on to that possibility, because they know it proves Trump’s assertions about at least part of the fraud of the election, and they would never stand for that.

I've searched to for more information in regards to Cotton and there's very little to find in regards to this. There's plenty OTOH to show wild allegations of unsubstantiated fraud and even shouts of illegal behaviour on behalf of Maricopa county

You keep searching in unreliable places. Your first link was full of the same stuff that was already debunked, both in the news media and in this thread.

As you continue to perpetuate a lie, despite being so offended someone told a falsehood about you, that makes you more than an hypocritical troll, it makes you a fraud.
Don’t be a fraud, Brain, repent.

 

[Derf]

Arizona Senate is Reportedly Considering An Additional Audit of Maricopa County – This Time Including All the 2020 Election Results​

As well they and numerous other states should.

 

[Arthur Brain]

No problem.

That remains to be seen, whether something underhanded was done with the files. My point was that despite the deletion of the files being reiterated by Cotton, none of your news sites have yet admitted any files were deleted. That is EXACTLY the main point of MY argument. And even though you don’t want to acknowledge it, you have perpetuated the false concept that no files were deleted, and you continue to do so, despite numerous attempts on my part to enlighten you. That’s where false witness comes in.

He didn’t say it was moot, nor did he say that the files weren’t deleted and were just not where they looked for them, as your 1st link contends. He specifically said they were deleted, but there was no need to request them of Maricopa Cty again, because they had been recovered (which from the first meant that they had been deleted). The question is still open whether a federal crime was committed by someone by deleting those files—but your news sites would never want to let on to that possibility, because they know it proves Trump’s assertions about at least part of the fraud of the election, and they would never stand for that.

You keep searching in unreliable places. Your first link was full of the same stuff that was already debunked, both in the news media and in this thread.

As you continue to perpetuate a lie, despite being so offended someone told a falsehood about you, that makes you more than an hypocritical troll, it makes you a fraud.
Don’t be a fraud, Brain, repent.

Well, I was more than willing to be reasonable as you seemed at first to be with this but then you shot that all to pieces with your last. If you are willing to take TGP & similar sources at face value then that's your call but as I outlined in my previous, I've searched several sources and it's only far right sites that are making anything like a deal of this and not only that, perpetuating their own agenda that some egregious fraud and illegality has taken place sans evidence with stupid claims of criminality. Non of this is being taken seriously elsewhere and I'm not some conspiracy theorist that buys into the notion that all of the world's 'mainstream media' is trying to pull a fast one or pull the wool over people's eyes.

Frankly, this whole thing is ridiculous. Call me what you want.

 

[Derf]

Well, I was more than willing to be reasonable as you seemed at first to be with this but then you shot that all to pieces with your last. If you are willing to take TGP & similar sources at face value then that's your call but as I outlined in my previous, I've searched several sources and it's only far right sites that are making anything like a deal of this and not only that, perpetuating their own agenda that some egregious fraud and illegality has taken place sans evidence with stupid claims of criminality. Non of this is being taken seriously elsewhere and I'm not some conspiracy theorist that buys into the notion that all of the world's 'mainstream media' is trying to pull a fast one or pull the wool over people's eyes.

Frankly, this whole thing is ridiculous. Call me what you want.

Of course, you’re defining “far right sites” as those that take this seriously, so your bias confirms itself.
I’m not really interested in what you claim yourself to be, either, as that also is self-confirming.
You have not yet addressed the issue that I brought up—that your sources have repeated the mantra that the files were not deleted, when the man who recovered the files explicitly said they were. That puts you and your media sources, call them mainstream or worldwide or whatever you want to call them, in the category of bearing false witness, and as such are completely untrustworthy for providing truthful news, at least without repentance.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Of course, you’re defining “far right sites” as those that take this seriously, so your bias confirms itself.
I’m not really interested in what you claim yourself to be, either, as that also is self-confirming.
You have not yet addressed the issue that I brought up—that your sources have repeated the mantra that the files were not deleted, when the man who recovered the files explicitly said they were. That puts you and your media sources, call them mainstream or worldwide or whatever you want to call them, in the category of bearing false witness, and as such are completely untrustworthy for providing truthful news, at least without repentance.

I'm simply observing that it's only far right sites, often discredited for promoting fake news and conspiracy rubbish are pushing this. Sans credible evidence then these claims can be dismissed until corroborated and verified. It's already been embarrassing for auditors who claimed massive fraud and deleted files and had no choice but to backtrack away from them and where exactly is Cotton making such a fuss about it?

 

[Derf]

I'm simply observing that it's only far right sites, often discredited for promoting fake news and conspiracy rubbish are pushing this. Sans credible evidence then these claims can be dismissed until corroborated and verified. It's already been embarrassing for auditors who claimed massive fraud and deleted files and had no choice but to backtrack away from them and where exactly is Cotton making such a fuss about it?

At least they backed away from unsubstantiated claims, waiting to see what was really going on with the deleted files. Not so you and your sources. And you’re not “simply observing” when you post stuff that’s been discredited in direct replies to you. That’s fraud, Brain.

 

[Arthur Brain]

At least they backed away from unsubstantiated claims, waiting to see what was really going on with the deleted files. Not so you and your sources. And you’re not “simply observing” when you post stuff that’s been discredited in direct replies to you. That’s fraud, Brain.

They should never have been daft enough to make any such claims in the first place. Then again, Cyber Ninjas and the like aren't even qualified to do such an audit are they? Again, where is Cotton making a fuss about it?

 

[Derf]

They should never have been daft enough to make any such claims in the first place. Then again, Cyber Ninjas and the like aren't even qualified to do such an audit are they? Again, where is Cotton making a fuss about it?

So if I understand you correctly, then if Cotton isn’t making a fuss about it, then it’s ok for your sources to lie and not retract them, and it’d ok for you to continue promoting the lies?

And what does the qualifications of Cyber Ninjas have to do with you and your sources lying? “It’s ok to lie if your enemy is not certified in auditing elections” is not a standard I expected you to hold, no matter how liberal you are. How naive I've been! Despite disagreeing with you on many occasions, I thought you were intelligent and well-read. Nope just following the narrative and fact-checking truth with falsehoods.

How hypocritically trollish you’ve been! You’ve completely lost any respect with me, as you might have noticed from my posts. You should be ashamed, Arthur Brain!

 

[Arthur Brain]

So if I understand you correctly, then if Cotton isn’t making a fuss about it, then it’s ok for your sources to lie and not retract them, and it’d ok for you to continue promoting the lies?

And what does the qualifications of Cyber Ninjas have to do with you and your sources lying? “It’s ok to lie if your enemy is not certified in auditing elections” is not a standard I expected you to hold, no matter how liberal you are. How naive I've been! Despite disagreeing with you on many occasions, I thought you were intelligent and well-read. Nope just following the narrative and fact-checking truth with falsehoods.

How hypocritically trollish you’ve been! You’ve completely lost any respect with me, as you might have noticed from my posts. You should be ashamed, Arthur Brain!

Well, you haven't understood correctly then. As it stands there's no verifiable proof that any files were 'deleted' and I've asked you for a link to Cotton on the score. Believe it or not, his own testimony isn't the arbiter of actual truth on the matter either. That being said, do you have one to discuss?

Frankly, Derf, you've acted disrespectfully with me from the practical outset and downright accused me of something that you yourself had to retract so your expectations of how I should feel mean...not very much.

 

[Derf]

Well, you haven't understood correctly then. As it stands there's no verifiable proof that any files were 'deleted' and I've asked you for a link to Cotton on the score. Believe it or not, his own testimony isn't the arbiter of actual truth on the matter either. That being said, do you have one to discuss?

Frankly, Derf, you've acted disrespectfully with me from the practical outset and downright accused me of something that you yourself had to retract so your expectations of how I should feel mean...not very much.

And I retracted.
but I provided a snapshot from the recovery efforts showing files that were deleted and subsequently recovered. I didn’t provide the Ben Cotton video, but viewed it here on this thread. You’ve been provided all that you asked on this issue, which incidentally showed that your sources were wrong.
Funny—no retraction from you.

And no, my disrespect wasn’t from the outset, but has developed over time, according to what you displayed.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And I retracted.
but I provided a snapshot from the recovery efforts showing files that were deleted and subsequently recovered. I didn’t provide the Ben Cotton video, but viewed it here on this thread. You’ve been provided all that you asked on this issue, which incidentally showed that your sources were wrong.
Funny—no retraction from you.

And no, my disrespect wasn’t from the outset, but has developed over time, according to what you displayed.

Yes, you did, which to be fair is more than some have done with wild accusations but when you fling some of the other stuff about for which there's no need then that undercuts it somewhat.

You provided a snapshot that could hardly be considered irrefutable proof and that's about all there seems to be. So why should anyone take such seriously? As I've stated already, I've searched for stuff regarding Cotton and there's little to find.

What you think I've displayed is what exactly? An aversion to wild conspiracy theories and outlandish claims that lack sufficient evidence to back them up?

 

[ok doser]

Meanwhile

 

[User Name]

Meanwhile

What’s Happening In Arizona Is Not Really An Audit Or A Recount. It’s A Partisan Inquisition.

The day after the November 2020 election, the chairs of the Republican, Democratic, and Libertarian parties of Maricopa County, Arizona, initiated a routine but…

fivethirtyeight.com

 

[ok doser]

What’s Happening In Arizona Is Not Really An Audit Or A Recount. It’s A Partisan Inquisition.

The day after the November 2020 election, the chairs of the Republican, Democratic, and Libertarian parties of Maricopa County, Arizona, initiated a routine but…

fivethirtyeight.com

My vid featured a black man. Your article was by a whitey.

I win

 

[JudgeRightly]

My vid featured a black man. Your article was by a whitey.

I win

That's racist!

 

[ok doser]

That's racist!

It sure is!

 

[Derf]

You provided a snapshot that could hardly be considered irrefutable proof and that's about all there seems to be. So why should anyone take such seriously?

Your request at first was for “evidence”, not “irrefutable proof”. When evidence was provided, you switch to the greater standard, but what I provided met your original standard. More was provided in the testimony of Ben Cotton. It also was evidence, though not irrefutable proof.
Irrefutable proof would not require an audit.

As I've stated already, I've searched for stuff regarding Cotton and there's little to find.

“Little” is sufficient. Here’s some of that “little”: https://www.independentsentinel.com...ricopa-he-did-not-backtrack-fake-news-cnn-ap/
Here’s some more: https://www.independentsentinel.com...cials-for-deliberately-misleading-the-public/

What you think I've displayed is what exactly? An aversion to wild conspiracy theories and outlandish claims that lack sufficient evidence to back them up?

What you’ve displayed is a shifting set of standards that even you aren’t willing to live up to. That’s hypocrisy. When you keep doing it after being shown it’s wrong, that’s trolling.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Your request at first was for “evidence”, not “irrefutable proof”. When evidence was provided, you switch to the greater standard, but what I provided met your original standard. More was provided in the testimony of Ben Cotton. It also was evidence, though not irrefutable proof.
Irrefutable proof would not require an audit.

“Little” is sufficient. Here’s some of that “little”: https://www.independentsentinel.com...ricopa-he-did-not-backtrack-fake-news-cnn-ap/
Here’s some more: https://www.independentsentinel.com...cials-for-deliberately-misleading-the-public/

What you’ve displayed is a shifting set of standards that even you aren’t willing to live up to. That’s hypocrisy. When you keep doing it after being shown it’s wrong, that’s trolling.

Well, what other kind of evidence would anyone want besides the irrefutable kind exactly? Unreliable? Lacking foundation or substance? So, no, I'm not displaying a 'shifting set of standards' or else quote me where I'd consider some local gossip would count as 'sufficient evidence' and the like. You'll have as much luck on that score as you had with Trump & Russia.

Your links most assuredly don't count.

 

[Derf]

Well, what other kind of evidence would anyone want besides the irrefutable kind exactly? Unreliable? Lacking foundation or substance? So, no, I'm not displaying a 'shifting set of standards' or else quote me where I'd consider some local gossip would count as 'sufficient evidence' and the like. You'll have as much luck on that score as you had with Trump & Russia.

Your links most assuredly don't count.

"Local gossip" about a murder is called "circumstantial evidence". It's not sufficient for conviction, nor is it to be trusted by itself, but it can lead to a conviction if other evidence is found during the investigation. That's why you need an investigation (audit)--because the evidence (made up of circumstantial and other types) suggest that fraudulent activity has occurred in the commission of an election crime.

Thus, your standards of irrefutable evidence lead to the audit, which you call "ridiculous". That means you are calling your standards ridiculous, which is exactly what I've been saying--you're a hypocrite.

I'm glad we're in agreement.

 

[Arthur Brain]

"Local gossip" about a murder is called "circumstantial evidence". It's not sufficient for conviction, nor is it to be trusted by itself, but it can lead to a conviction if other evidence is found during the investigation. That's why you need an investigation (audit)--because the evidence (made up of circumstantial and other types) suggest that fraudulent activity has occurred in the commission of an election crime.

Thus, your standards of irrefutable evidence lead to the audit, which you call "ridiculous". That means you are calling your standards ridiculous, which is exactly what I've been saying--you're a hypocrite.

I'm glad we're in agreement.

Local gossip can be just that, gossip without foundation in fact and not evidence at all, not sufficient for conviction or anything else associated. Just like baseless allegations of fraud and misconduct don't count either. This audit didn't come about because of anything substantial or meaningful in terms of proper concerns regarding possible chicanery. It's a complete farce that I've maintained from the get go, from Trump's ridiculous claims on election night and ongoing. So how have my standards in any way 'changed' exactly?

Try a different tack because this one isn't working for you, not that any other sort will either.