Why would God need a hell?

[Timotheos]

That verse says absolutely nothing about a human consciousness being destroyed. Now, you have your whole bible with you, show me anywhere in it that a human consciousness is destroyed forever. Now if its what you believe, you should have at least 3 to 10 verses bearing witness to it; lets have them.

I'm sorry but you are assuming that dead people are conscious. I do not assume that. When the person is destroyed, they do not retain consciousness. If you think that people who are (as the Bible says) "no more" are alive and conscious while they are "no more" then it is up to you to prove that assumption.

I just believe what the Bible says, and when the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, that's what I accept.

But if you believe that the Bible says that people who have been destroyed and are no more actually are not destroyed and remain alive forever, then post your evidence from the Bible of this. Because honestly, I have never seen even one verse from the Bible that says that people who have been destroyed and are no more will continue to conscious for all eternity.

 

[Mickiel]

I'm sorry but you are assuming that dead people are conscious. I do not assume that. When the person is destroyed, they do not retain consciousness. If you think that people who are (as the Bible says) "no more" are alive and conscious while they are "no more" then it is up to you to prove that assumption.

I just believe what the Bible says, and when the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, that's what I accept.

But if you believe that the Bible says that people who have been destroyed and are no more actually are not destroyed and remain alive forever, then post your evidence from the Bible of this. Because honestly, I have never seen even one verse from the Bible that says that people who have been destroyed and are no more will continue to conscious for all eternity.

I gave you the opportunity to post your scriptures showing God killing the consciousness of a human forever, you have offered none; which I think speaks for itself.

Now then, I maintain that when humans die, their body is dead, not their consciousness; the consciousness is now only sleep, or unconscious. Here are 34 verses proving that;

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sleep,-And-Death

 

[Mickiel]

I'm sorry but you are assuming that dead people are conscious. I do not assume that. When the person is destroyed, they do not retain consciousness. If you think that people who are (as the Bible says) "no more" are alive and conscious while they are "no more" then it is up to you to prove that assumption.

I just believe what the Bible says, and when the Bible says that the wicked will be destroyed and will be no more, that's what I accept.

But if you believe that the Bible says that people who have been destroyed and are no more actually are not destroyed and remain alive forever, then post your evidence from the Bible of this. Because honestly, I have never seen even one verse from the Bible that says that people who have been destroyed and are no more will continue to conscious for all eternity.

There are a lot of scriptures on the subject, so before I begin, you can look at this;

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

 

[Ktoyou]

As the parade of Christians who would subtract God from the future of unbelievers increases, I bear witness that Christians cannot reduce salvation, no matter how hard they try. 2 Pet. 3:15, " The Longsuffering of our Lord IS Salvation."

God is right now suffering himself with you, he is going through this period FOR your salvation.

This is completely irrelevant to my simple post.

 

[Mickiel]

This is completely irrelevant to my simple post.

Well I understand that it is relevant in your Christian mind, to teach this world that many of its residents will spend eternity separate from God; I am against that kind of belief, and so is the word of God. As you use your motivation to preach eternal hell, I use mind to show eternal mercy and forgiveness for all of humanity; because that is what they need.

Unbelievers don't need the Christian doctrine of separation and misery; they have enough of that now.

 

[Ktoyou]

Well I understand that it is relevant in your Christian mind, to teach this world that many of its residents will spend eternity separate from God; I am against that kind of belief, and so is the word of God.

:nono:

:wazzup:
You seem to be :dunce:

 

[Mickiel]

:nono:

:wazzup:
You seem to be :dunce:

Well I understand the need for some Christians to insult those who disagree with them; I have seen that need before. I will not respond to you by insulting you, because I don't have such needs. I rely on scriptures and I prefer using respect and the force of my argument; I feel that is enough.

Just like I feel the death of Christ was enough to save all those you condemn.

 

[Mickiel]

In Job 12:10, " In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath, ( or consciousness), of all mankind. This is a picture of the large responsibility that God has, every human consciousness, or life IS God's. In Psalms 82 ; 6, " You are God's!" That does not mean that humans themselves are gods, it means we all " Belong" to God, we are his children. All of us.

But the world must face those who reject that we all belong to God, religion is fighting against that and trying to separate humans from God and shrink God's family. A new selfish movement has emerged, and is using the name of Christ to limit his Kingdom, and Christianity leads this movement. In it, unbelievers are being pushed out of God's family portrait. They are being stepped on, as the Christians symbolically wipe their dust off their feet, and with pride, make their beds in their hell.

Who shall be able to stand against this religious giant?

 

[serpentdove]

In Job 12:10, " In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath, (or consciousness), of all mankind. This is a picture of the large responsibility that God has, every human consciousness, or life is God's...

He is the creator (Is. 40:28). We are his creation (Gen. 9:6). Eze 18:4, Rom. 1:25

 

[freelight]

The Omnipresent ONE,.....as all that is.

The Omnipresent ONE,.....as all that is.

That is one, here's another, eternity without God.

Hi Kat,....considering that 'God' is omnipresent, and nothing can exist apart from Him (see here). The idea or 'concept' of being without 'God' for all eternity seems illogical, unless it is by one's own 'perception' or 'mis-perception'(clouded by 'sin', 'illusion', 'delusion', 'ignorance' 'error', etc.) that they are 'seperate' from the One Universal Reality that is Omnipresent, everywhere and everywhen (in all space and time and beyond it).

Even David said he could not flee from God's presense, on earth or even in 'sheol', since the omnipresence of 'God' fills all space. So, the 'error' or 'sin' {being a 'mentality' that is 'missing the mark'} is only in the 'perception' of 'seperation'. Consider that. When a soul rejoins or recognizes its true original nature and source (pure spirit-consciousness), then the sense of 'seperation' is absolved/resolved in the ground of original unity at the heart of all. The inherent awareness of one's own being, and all that exists, cannot be outside of the consciousness of 'God', ever. (unless there is a condition that is wholly unconscious or negated, unreal, non-existing, empty of of any essence of form; 'death' in its absolute/ultimate description).

God is One. God is All That IS. - you cannot be separate from All That IS

All these speculations of 'soul-death', 'universal salvation', 'ECT' are just variations of possibilities entertained by various theologies or one's preferential view of eschatology. 'God' right NOW is the One absolute Reality, and my very own 'being' and 'consciousness' is only because 'God' is the very root-source of it. I could nowise be 'seperate' from 'God' as an atom or molecule of water could be separate from the ocean or its elemental source. 'God' the infinite contains/encompasses all.

Just some wonderful reflections on OMNIPRESENCE.

All these are just ideas/beliefs about being 'seperated' from God for any amount of time or eternally,....they just imagined, assumed, supposed. Meanwhile, 'God' is forever filling all space and time ....to the fullness of infinity and beyond

 

[Arthur Brain]

Well, I "made a fair point" already, so I'm not sure that the direction to 'think' is necessary.

It wasn't an insult, only used to emphasize that I'd taken into account your Calvinism.

First, God cares for all human beings. We have to eliminate some of your scenario if such is true. Does this mean 'no hell!' I don't think it does. I try not to 'emote' when thinking of such things. Do we 'need' to emote? I think we do, but it should be set aside when we go to looking at what are facts and what we cannot change. Dealing effectively with information at that point, is more important than 'how I feel about it.' You and I will agree that if it is all true, as given, we are in a desperate need. The cure is given as faith and trust in Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Those are the larger things on the 'reality table.' I'm hoping that I'm not side-stepping your scenario so much as taking your greater concerns by the horns as it were and addressing that which is. There is a LOT of emoting in this thread. My concern, as I've repeatedly stated is not 'what we'd like to have happen' but rather 'what is.' We all necessarily have to live with what is actually.

How about addressing why there is emoting in a thread such as this and then why human beings are generally emotive creatures? If we're all created by God then those emotions are instilled so why? Why is it that most people balk at senseless cruelty - or grieve at another's death and suffering? Mourn? Feel immense loss? You can't get away from that side of people Lon and on a subject where a doctrine declares that people can go to some incomprehensible place of unending torment then emotions are gonna play their part.

The point was that "I" can't make hell subjectively go away. You? It seems that "if I can argue logically against it, it must not exist" is more than a little 'subjective.' I personally know I have no control whatsoever over the existence of hell.

Which "hell"? I can't make physical death go away, it's reality. The myriad takes on 'hell' and the lake of fire? I can't make all of the subjective opinions on those go away either but I'm under no obligation to accept that it translates as unending torment of some sort or another because certain doctrines dictate it.

 

[Ktoyou]

Hi Kat,....considering that 'God' is omnipresent, and nothing can exist apart from Him (see here). The idea or 'concept' of being without 'God' for all eternity seems illogical, unless it is by one's own 'perception' or 'mis-perception'(clouded by 'sin', 'illusion', 'delusion', 'ignorance' 'error', etc.) that they are 'seperate' from the One Universal Reality that is Omnipresent, everywhere and everywhen (in all space and time and beyond it).

They know Him, although have not Grace through Christ. Think about what Jesus said.

 

[Arthur Brain]

That is one, here's another, eternity without God.

So which one's correct then and why would there be any ambiguity on the matter whatsoever or misunderstanding? How many different takes on 'hell', 'hades', 'the lake of fire' are there exactly?

Tons is what.

 

[Arthur Brain]

True - Hebrews 12 indicates that God disciplines his children - and if we aren't disciplined, we aren't true children of God. It is for our good!

However, not every person is a child of God. Only those who believe in Christ have been given the right to be children of God (John 1:12). Those who reject Christ are children of the devil (John 8:44).

So when were you disciplined then? At what point did you realize that you were a 'true child' and presumably part of the 'annointed'? At what point did you believe and why? Was it a conscious and individual decision on your part?

Would you agree that sin is disobeying God? That it is rejecting God's will? Isn't it God's will to believe in Jesus?

If it's God's will then what choice would you or anyone else have but to believe? Or does it require some input on your part before God's will can take effect? Do you still lie or transgress at any stage?

Do you believe a person must be born again to belong to God's Kingdom? Do you believe there are other ways to be born again outside Jesus? I don't believe so, so I consider those who reject Christ's provision of salvation to be rejecting God.

Again, define 'reject' as so far you're just coming up with broad speak terms to try and justify other people's interminable suffering.

There must be a punishment that fits the crime. If the worst penalty our justice system could dish out was 30 days in jail - it wouldn't be a good justice system. There must be penalties that fit the crime.


I've made my case as to why I believe hell is the only possible penalty to fit the worst possible crime we can commit.

How old are you if you don't mind my asking? I ask because you remind me of certain zealous youth in my former church who would espouse this type of stuff - but who had yet to be exposed to the brickbats of life and actual comprehension of the suffering they would 'intellectually' justify for other people. Your 'reasoning' is simplistic and lacking empathy, a trait of doctrine unfortunately.

Perfect description of me - flawed. I can escape torment because of what Christ has done. That's not my crazy notion - that's what I see taught in the Bible.

Like everybody else, but logically you're less flawed because it's not just what God has done, it's because of what you've done as well if God's work isn't enough. So take credit for that - except I reckon you won't want to do that will you? Tough though. You're better than those who "reject" just by your own arguments here.

Great question - I think a bit outside the bounds of this topic. Why did God create anything rather than nothing. The Bible doesn't give a straight forward answer to this, but if God is love and if God knew the result of creating the world would be that some would reject him, then he must have taken that into consideration and still deemed that creation would result in greater net quality and love than not creating. I suppose I'd have to be God to perfectly answer that question.

So there's a loving all powerful creator that could only create life whereby some portion at least would suffer for eternity by their own parameters? There couldn't be anything better than that? Does that really sound all that loving or powerful to you on the face of it?

No doubt it would be a terrible state. A lot of the verses on hell are found in parables and Revelation - both of which are filled with non-literal language. Hell is described as a place of fire and a place of darkness. Those two things don't quite go together. I think the Bible uses this language to depict a terrible place. I don't think an infinity of inflicting physical pain would accomplish justice. The penalty for rejecting Christ's provision to be with God is to be apart from God forever. I actually think this is worse than any physical pain. Our minds are able to cope with ongoing physical pain - eventually we can tune out the pain - but to be apart from God for all eternity - to be in regret - to replay the opportunities you had in your life to turn to God - that will haunt you for eternity - and like all mental pain and anguish, you can't tune it out.

You don't think an infinity of inflicting physical pain would accomplish justice for other people but rather - and in your own words, something worse and described in detail no less. Now, would you be at all surprised if people reading your above would see you as arrogant, unloving and completely bereft of empathy and compassion for your fellow flawed neighbour?

 

[Mickiel]

As Christianity continues its assault on unbelievers , it keeps pimping its theology of hurting humans forever, if they do not comply with God. This is obviously how THEY want to handle this matter of unbelief, but what will keep unbelievers safe from these " Church People", is the word of God. In 1 Corinth. 15:22, " In Adam All die, even so, in Christ ALL shall be made alive!"

This is going to keep the hell hands off of unbelievers, the hell mongers cannot move Christ out of the way, while they seek to populate their hell. In verse 28, ALL things will be subdued to Christ, that all things, includes all the people that Christianity is believing are fodder for their hell fire.

Somebody has to save these people from Christianity and merciless religion; someone has to stand for the sinners that the followers of God have rejected. And Jesus has that all covered, the lynch mobs who think themselves the righteous, hold no power to doom any human.

 

[Lon]

It wasn't an insult, only used to emphasize that I'd taken into account your Calvinism.

It wasn't said well. This apology isn't very thoughtful either, but I'll take it because I like you. I'd say 'think before you post' but that could be considered condescending as well, no? (this all good humored ribbing).

How about addressing why there is emoting in a thread such as this and then why human beings are generally emotive creatures? If we're all created by God then those emotions are instilled so why? Why is it that most people balk at senseless cruelty - or grieve at another's death and suffering? Mourn? Feel immense loss? You can't get away from that side of people Lon and on a subject where a doctrine declares that people can go to some incomprehensible place of unending torment then emotions are gonna play their part.

You are talking as if you are not the master of your own destiny, that you can choose to enter the narrow gate or not. "Crowd" mentality, as far as I've ever seen/witnessed, is NEVER a good idea. It sure is emotive, though.

Which "hell"? I can't make physical death go away, it's reality. The myriad takes on 'hell' and the lake of fire? I can't make all of the subjective opinions on those go away either but I'm under no obligation to accept that it translates as unending torment of some sort or another because certain doctrines dictate it.

Incorrect. You and I will deal with reality we've been dealt. Period. That's the nature of reality, whether we are psychotic about denial or not.
Denial is not a good coping mechanism imho. Maybe it 'works' for you, but that is just ignoring hoping it will go away. All this to say, I think a thread that delves into the scriptures much more meaningful and efficient. By comparison, it is the difference between a thread that lists websites concerning ozone layer depreciation or one that says 'it isn't happening.' I'm a bit shocked that the 'denial' thread is getting this kind of attention over against one that says perhaps "Biblical evidence and description of Hell." (given that biblical authority and expression is accepted).

 

[Lon]

As Christianity continues its assault on unbelievers , it keeps pimping its theology of hurting humans forever, if they do not comply with God. This is obviously how THEY want to handle this matter of unbelief, but what will keep unbelievers safe from these " Church People", is the word of God. In 1 Corinth. 15:22, " In Adam All die, even so, in Christ ALL shall be made alive!"

Some do. I don't tend to

This is going to keep the hell hands off of unbelievers, the hell mongers cannot move Christ out of the way, while they seek to populate their hell. In verse 28, ALL things will be subdued to Christ, that all things, includes all the people that Christianity is believing are fodder for their hell fire.

This is 'trying' to blame the existence of a thing on the ones that accept its reality. Deniability isn't a virtue. It is a bit like shooting messengers of global warming, no? Your thinking is: "A good God cannot allow global warming."

Somebody has to save these people from Christianity and merciless religion; someone has to stand for the sinners that the followers of God have rejected. And Jesus has that all covered, the lynch mobs who think themselves the righteous, hold no power to doom any human.

Opinion is popular, everybody has one. Emotions are a dime a dozen as well, they don't get the job done unless a dupe is happy with meaningless platitudes of emotional hype.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It wasn't said well. This apology isn't very thoughtful either, but I'll take it because I like you. I'd say 'think before you post' but that could be considered condescending as well, no? (this all good humored ribbing).

It wasn't meant as an apology but then neither was my first intended as an insult.

You are talking as if you are not the master of your own destiny, that you can choose to enter the narrow gate or not. "Crowd" mentality, as far as I've ever seen/witnessed, is NEVER a good idea. It sure is emotive, though.

If I were to have gone with the 'crowd mentality' where it came to 'hell' I'd have been preaching the Pentecostal 'varieties' of it. I ended up being effectively ostracized from the church some years ago because I continually questioned the notion of eternal suffering and wouldn't just blindly accept it.

Incorrect. You and I will deal with reality we've been dealt. Period. That's the nature of reality, whether we are psychotic about denial or not.

The reality of the situation is that "hell" is something that churches across the board aren't in anything approaching 'universal' agreement on in any denomination or another.

Denial is not a good coping mechanism imho. Maybe it 'works' for you, but that is just ignoring hoping it will go away. All this to say, I think a thread that delves into the scriptures much more meaningful and efficient. By comparison, it is the difference between a thread that lists websites concerning ozone layer depreciation or one that says 'it isn't happening.' I'm a bit shocked that the 'denial' thread is getting this kind of attention over against one that says perhaps "Biblical evidence and description of Hell." (given that biblical authority and expression is accepted).

I denied several contradictory descriptions of 'hell' in just the one church alone Lon. I'm under no obligation to accept your "real" one as any the more tangible or reliable on your testimony alone. That isn't reality - it's just another doctrine describing the same place from a different ideology.

 

[Mickiel]

I am about to listen to the American president state of the Union speech. Its amazing how the Republicans have blocked this man at every turn; it reminds me of how Christianity is trying to block salvation from unbelievers.

 

[freelight]

I'm a bit shocked that the 'denial' thread is getting this kind of attention over against one that says perhaps "Biblical evidence and description of Hell." (given that biblical authority and expression is accepted).

Maybe about time you 'questioned' that so called 'evidence' and 'authority' which is just a 'belief' or 'position'. Otherwise, we've shown the problems with ECT and 'eternal hellfire' beliefs, which on principle alone (textual criticism issues aside) fails