Why would God need a hell?

[Prizebeatz1]

Hi Kat,....considering that 'God' is omnipresent, and nothing can exist apart from Him (see here). The idea or 'concept' of being without 'God' for all eternity seems illogical, unless it is by one's own 'perception' or 'mis-perception'(clouded by 'sin', 'illusion', 'delusion', 'ignorance' 'error', etc.) that they are 'seperate' from the One Universal Reality that is Omnipresent, everywhere and everywhen (in all space and time and beyond it).

Even David said he could not flee from God's presense, on earth or even in 'sheol', since the omnipresence of 'God' fills all space. So, the 'error' or 'sin' {being a 'mentality' that is 'missing the mark'} is only in the 'perception' of 'seperation'. Consider that. When a soul rejoins or recognizes its true original nature and source (pure spirit-consciousness), then the sense of 'seperation' is absolved/resolved in the ground of original unity at the heart of all. The inherent awareness of one's own being, and all that exists, cannot be outside of the consciousness of 'God', ever. (unless there is a condition that is wholly unconscious or negated, unreal, non-existing, empty of of any essence of form; 'death' in its absolute/ultimate description).

God is One. God is All That IS. - you cannot be separate from All That IS

All these speculations of 'soul-death', 'universal salvation', 'ECT' are just variations of possibilities entertained by various theologies or one's preferential view of eschatology. 'God' right NOW is the One absolute Reality, and my very own 'being' and 'consciousness' is only because 'God' is the very root-source of it. I could nowise be 'seperate' from 'God' as an atom or molecule of water could be separate from the ocean or its elemental source. 'God' the infinite contains/encompasses all.

Just some wonderful reflections on OMNIPRESENCE.

All these are just ideas/beliefs about being 'seperated' from God for any amount of time or eternally,....they just imagined, assumed, supposed. Meanwhile, 'God' is forever filling all space and time ....to the fullness of infinity and beyond

Sweet post. Does anyone take into consideration that what most people take to be death is actually the end of this feeling of separation from God? This is exactly why it seems so difficult to realize oneness. It takes a kind of death to experience it and quite frankly, no one wants to be made to feel like they are going to die much less experience real death. I've got news for you folks: what we think will lead us to death is actually what leads to true everlasting and eternal life. "Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it." Luke 17:33. Ever notice how badly the personality is trying to keep its life by hanging on to its beliefs? This is not a coincidence. The teaching in Luke 17:33 is highly technologically advanced and people prefer to glance over it, yet a part of us knows it to be the truth. We are one with this truth. The soul remembers.

 

[Zeke]

Maybe about time you 'questioned' that so called 'evidence' and 'authority' which is just a 'belief' or 'position'. Otherwise, we've shown the problems with ECT and 'eternal hellfire' beliefs, which on principle alone (textual criticism issues aside) fails

That will be a cold day in _ _ _ _.

 

[freelight]

That will be a cold day in _ _ _ _.

lol. And just another 'metaphor' fit for another 'metaphor'

 

[Lon]

It wasn't meant as an apology but then neither was my first intended as an insult.

If I were to have gone with the 'crowd mentality' where it came to 'hell' I'd have been preaching the Pentecostal 'varieties' of it. I ended up being effectively ostracized from the church some years ago because I continually questioned the notion of eternal suffering and wouldn't just blindly accept it.

Well, "Pentecostal." I think it better to search the scriptures, at least initially. It would be worth time to read a systematic theology or two.

The reality of the situation is that "hell" is something that churches across the board aren't in anything approaching 'universal' agreement on in any denomination or another.

For me, that is why an academic approach is exponentially better than a 'loaded' thread like this.

I denied several contradictory descriptions of 'hell' in just the one church alone Lon. I'm under no obligation to accept your "real" one as any the more tangible or reliable on your testimony alone. That isn't reality - it's just another doctrine describing the same place from a different ideology.

:nono: Not 'my' real. God's real. Your real, our real.

 

[Zeke]

lol. And just another 'metaphor' fit for another 'metaphor'

I guess when you study in the mortuary you get dead results 2Cor 3:6.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Well, "Pentecostal." I think it better to search the scriptures, at least initially. It would be worth time to read a systematic theology or two.

Okay, short synopsis here. Disgusted at cavalier and callous attitudes towards 'unsaved'. Bemused at lack of coherence in what 'hell' actually was. Disillusioned with whole thing despite bizarrely finding book in church library that gave hope that 'hell' in eternal suffering was just doctrine and maybe that particular nightmare wasn't true. Could go on but suffice to say I found a myriad reasons to reject such dogma and regain some sort of hope that if there is a god then he wouldn't fry or subject humanity to some inescapable anguish ad infinitum. Believe it or not, a whole lot of that process actually involved scriptures.

For me, that is why an academic approach is exponentially better than a 'loaded' thread like this.

These types of thread are always going to be 'loaded' because you're talking about the interminable suffering of other people Lon. You must surely get that much and that's why I explained to you that we're designed to be emotive creatures. You just simply want to disregard that facet of our being it would seem.

:nono: Not 'my' real. God's real. Your real, our real.

No, it's just you trying to affirm that your doctrine is real. It's neither convincing or conducive to anything debate wise frankly.

 

[patrick jane]

As I said before, many folks seem to have no problem sending others to hell, but it's never themselves.

 

[freelight]

As I said before, many folks seem to have no problem sending others to hell, but it's never themselves.

And still, this 'hell' is just a concept in their heads,...there is no proof it exists anywhere else.

 

[Lon]

Believe it or not, a whole lot of that process actually involved scriptures.

It is the more important part of the discussion but I'd yet suggest that a Pentecostal library isn't a Protestant library per say.

These types of thread are always going to be 'loaded' because you're talking about the interminable suffering of other people Lon. You must surely get that much and that's why I explained to you that we're designed to be emotive creatures. You just simply want to disregard that facet of our being it would seem.

Yes, I do, at least as the first line. My emotions do not have anything to do with whether a truth exists or not. It is more important that I deal with facts than emotes. Emotes just don't 'do' anything.

No, it's just you trying to affirm that your doctrine is real. It's neither convincing or conducive to anything debate wise frankly.

Again, no. It doesn't matter what "I believe." It matters ONLY between us, what is real and what is not. God is God, you and I are incapable of 'wishing anything into existence.' You are yet subjective where I'm being entirely objective and including myself in the 'wishful thinking' department.

 

[freelight]

losing the false to realize the true.....

losing the false to realize the true.....

Sweet post. Does anyone take into consideration that what most people take to be death is actually the end of this feeling of separation from God? This is exactly why it seems so difficult to realize oneness. It takes a kind of death to experience it and quite frankly, no one wants to be made to feel like they are going to die much less experience real death. I've got news for you folks: what we think will lead us to death is actually what leads to true everlasting and eternal life. "Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it." Luke 17:33. Ever notice how badly the personality is trying to keep its life by hanging on to its beliefs? This is not a coincidence. The teaching in Luke 17:33 is highly technologically advanced and people prefer to glance over it, yet a part of us knows it to be the truth. We are one with this truth. The soul remembers.

:thumb:

The verse about 'losing one's life in order to find it' is a central truth, since its when all that is attached to one's false sense of 'self' (transient ego), falsely assumed as 'real', 'substantial' or 'satisfying' is 'released' or 'abandoned'...that the real 'life' or 'reality' that is native to the soul is discovered as what was always already there, present in the depths of one's being, as the clarity of one's own awareness. The diamond-point of crystal clarity is the pure awareness itself, without any object. It is what IS,....so by definition, is reality itself. - this however is the essence of 'non-dualism' experienced by realizers or mystics of all religious traditions, when the barrier or gulf between 'God' and the 'soul' is dissolved, and when that is dissolved, there is God ONLY

 

[freelight]

That will be a cold day in _ _ _ _.

H E double toothpicks ?

- just another mad-lib

 

[Timotheos]

I gave you the opportunity to post your scriptures showing God killing the consciousness of a human forever, you have offered none; which I think speaks for itself.

Now then, I maintain that when humans die, their body is dead, not their consciousness; the consciousness is now only sleep, or unconscious. Here are 34 verses proving that;

http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Sleep,-And-Death

Okay, so if I understand you correctly, you are claiming that a person is conscious during the time that they are no more. I'm trying to understand how this can be. How can a person who no longer exists be alive and conscious?

Those 34 verses do not actually say "a person is conscious while they are dead". Please re-read them.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

:thumb:

The verse about 'losing one's life in order to find it' is a central truth, since its when all that is attached to one's false sense of 'self' (transient ego), falsely assumed as 'real', 'substantial' or 'satisfying' is 'released' or 'abandoned'...that the real 'life' or 'reality' that is native to the soul is discovered as what was always already there, present in the depths of one's being, as the clarity of one's own awareness. The diamond-point of crystal clarity is the pure awareness itself, without any object. It is what IS,....so by definition, is reality itself. - this however is the essence of 'non-dualism' experienced by realizers or mystics of all religious traditions, when the barrier or gulf between 'God' and the 'soul' is dissolved, and when that is dissolved, there is God ONLY

This is the apex of this entire thread.

 

[Mickiel]

Okay, so if I understand you correctly, you are claiming that a person is conscious during the time that they are no more. I'm trying to understand how this can be. How can a person who no longer exists be alive and conscious?

Those 34 verses do not actually say "a person is conscious while they are dead". Please re-read them.

Listen, read carefully what I am about to write;

when a person is dead, they are NOT conscious, but, their body is what is dead, their consciousness is only sleep. This is what the 34 verses show, and its absolutely nothing I can show you outside of those scriptures; if you can't see them, then you will only see what you see.

 

[Timotheos]

Listen, read carefully what I am about to write;

when a person is dead, they are NOT conscious, but, their body is what is dead, their consciousness is only sleep. This is what the 34 verses show, and its absolutely nothing I can show you outside of those scriptures; if you can't see them, then you will only see what you see.

I see what the Bible says. And it doesn't say that dead people are conscious. You asked me to show you where people who no longer exist are no longer conscious. That is common knowledge. Now, if you believe that people who no longer exist are conscious, and you think that the Bible says this, why can't you post Scripture that says this?

 

[Mickiel]

I see what the Bible says. And it doesn't say that dead people are conscious. You asked me to show you where people who no longer exist are no longer conscious. That is common knowledge. Now, if you believe that people who no longer exist are conscious, and you think that the Bible says this, why can't you post Scripture that says this?

I did not say dead people are conscious, I said they are sleep, which means unconscious, and I gave 34 scriptures to show that; you said that God is going to totally kill humans, and have not provided a list of clear scriptures showing that. The scriptures show he will kill the human body, not the consciousness.

Here is an excellent article on the subject, but its quite long;

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

 

[serpentdove]

"As Christianity continues its assault on unbelievers..."

:yawn: Truth is hate to those who hate the truth." ~ Bob Enyart

See:

Hell

"...it keeps pimping its theology of hurting humans forever..."

:yawn: Eph 4:14

"...if they do not comply with God."

Ps. 10:4 :juggle:

"This is obviously how they want to handle this matter of unbelief..."

:yawn: Who cares what we think? :straight: What does God think? oly: Prov. 26:12

"...what will keep unbelievers safe from these "Church People"..."

:yawn: 1 Jn 3:14

"...is the word of God. In 1 Corinth. 15:22..."

"1 Co 15:21, 22 man … Man. Adam, who through his sin brought death on the whole human race, was human. So was Christ, who by His resurrection brought life to the race. See notes on Rom. 5:12–19...

Ro 5:12 just as … sin entered. Not a particular sin, but the inherent propensity to sin entered the human realm; men became sinners by nature. Adam passed to all his descendants the inherent sinful nature he possessed because of his first disobedience. That nature is present from the moment of conception (Ps. 51:5), making it impossible for man to live in a way that pleases God. Satan, the father of sin (1 John 3:8), first brought temptation to Adam and Eve (Gen. 3:1–7). through one man. When Adam sinned, all mankind sinned in his loins (v. 18; cf. Heb. 7:7–10). Since his sin transformed his inner nature and brought spiritual death and depravity, that sinful nature would be passed on seminally to his posterity as well (Ps. 51:5). death. Adam was not originally subject to death, but through his sin it became a grim certainty for him and his posterity. Death has 3 distinct manifestations: 1) spiritual death or separation from God (cf. Eph. 1:1, 2; 4:18); 2) physical death (Heb. 9:27); and 3) eternal death (also called the second death), which includes not only eternal separation from God, but eternal torment in the lake of fire (Rev. 20:11–15). because all sinned. Because all humanity existed in the loins of Adam, and have through procreation inherited his fallenness and depravity, it can be said that all sinned in him. Therefore, humans are not sinners because they sin, but rather they sin because they are sinners." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1701). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

 

[Mickiel]

The Kingdom of God suffers violence on earth, and Christianity has taken it by the violent force of their eternal hell punishing doctrine.

 

[Mickiel]

Lets take a closer look at Matt. 11:12, " From the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force!" Now this is NOT referring to unbelievers , because there is nothing they could take from the Kingdom; its referring to believers. Believers who have violent forceful doctrines as a part of their gospel, and the best example of that violent force is the Christian doctrine of punishing humans for all of eternity; the most brutal violent message ever conceived of by a group of believers. Simply horrible news for humanity.

And the Christians are using this doctrine like a weapon, they teach its violence even to children. The mentality behind this violence, is to take God's Kingdom into their hands, and keep it from unbelievers; in that manner the Kingdom suffers, because some of its residents are being threatened with raw violence and denied entrance. And they are doing this in the name of Christ.

 

[Timotheos]

I did not say dead people are conscious, I said they are sleep, which means unconscious, and I gave 34 scriptures to show that; you said that God is going to totally kill humans, and have not provided a list of clear scriptures showing that. The scriptures show he will kill the human body, not the consciousness.

Here is an excellent article on the subject, but its quite long;

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

The link doesn't show that the Bible teaches that the "human body" will perish while the consciousness of the human body does not.

The 34 links also did not prove that dead people remain alive.