Why would God need a hell?

[KingdomRose]

No, he turned to God, repentant. All others are lost, due to pride. For hell to not exist, Christ has to be a liar.

You are calling Christ a liar when you advocate a literal hell-fire. He taught love and mercy, and roasting someone in a fire for eternity is not about love. It brings out the worst sadism that is in people's minds.

He never taught a literal hell-fire. He used the original Greek words that are now translated as "hell" or "hell-fire"......When he spoke about "Hades," he was referring to mankind's GRAVE. When he used the word "Gehenna" he was referring to the garbage dump outside Jerusalem where all the trash of the city was burned. His listeners would have imagined what the RESULT was of that burning, not the fire itself. The result was incineration---completely gone. That is what he taught. The wicked will die permanently, not live on in a fire. They will no longer exist, just as the trash in Gehenna would be completely gone eventually.

Why do people insist on believing in such a sadistic, horrible doctrine as that of hell-fire? The King James Version took three Greek words and translated them ALL as "hell," when each of the three has its own separate meaning.

"Hades" = the grave

"Gehenna" = annihilation

"Tartarus" = spiritual darkness

 

[KingdomRose]

As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If you don't believe THE Gospel: you're liable to swallow anything. You're living proof of this. Without The Blood of Christ, you're trying to steal The Kingdom, by trampling His Blood underfoot.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Well, sadly, you are preaching something that wasn't preached by Jesus or his Apostles. You have swallowed the bold-faced lie that Satan told Eve....."you really will NOT die" (Genesis 3:4). That is what anyone is preaching when they say that someone's soul is being consciously burned in a fire, after they have died. That is against the Gospel. It is Satan's lie. He is over-the-moon ecstatic, I'm sure, because people believe what he said.:devil:

 

[KingdomRose]

I think eternal hell is the only legitimately possible form of just punishment. Your illustration here only illustrates the constant problem of man - you are putting MAN at the center. You are thinking of justice in terms of how small a man is and what a man does. I think a more appropriate way of measuring justice is in terms of who GOD is.

Think of it this way. If a man punches a dog, what is the punishment? He might get a reprimand or a fine. If a man punches his neighbor, he might get a fine or a couple days in jail. If a man punches the president, he might get a larger fine and a couple years in jail. In each case, the punishment is not based on the action, but to whom the action was done. Now, lets say the man "punches" God by his rebellious actions. What is an appropriate fine? What is appropriate jail time? It should be based solely upon the value of God - which is unlimited and eternal.

This is what hell is - it is "eternal jail time" based upon the value of the one who we sin against.

That is why only Jesus could pay the price for our sins, because only his life could equal the value of the crime.

If the price of our crimes was limited to the value of our life, we would actually pay the price of our sins by dying, and then the score would be settled.

You say that someone who rejects the torturous flames of a bar-b-que pit are measuring justice in terms of how small man is and what he does? God's justice is shown in His supposed creation of a literal fire where dead souls are roasted forever? You've got it backward, Tall Guy. Eternal punishment is not commensurate with God's worth! It depends totally on what a person's heart is like, and what punishment is fair. God would not torture someone forever for that person's sins that he practiced for a few years on Earth. Eternal torture would not fit the crime. Why would God roast somebody forever with there not being any end to it? Just agony and screams forever! For what purpose? So the person would learn something? No, because that person is there forever. Such sick reasoning is partly why people of this world reject God.....to them He is not loving.

No, it is as Mikiel said.....it is what men would like to do to people, not God.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

I'd like to call up this issue of perceived separation from God. Why do we suppose this belief is so precious to the personality? What if we were to suspend this belief long enough to be shown what is real? I detect the personality disbelieves in the oneness, the unity, the wholeness, the miraculousness of a God undivided? It simply doesn't know any better. All of the attempts at dividing God also translates into dividing ourselves. That is a big part of why there is so much turmoil in the world. The personality is dysfunctional with a rather nasty ability to project. Just as false gold points to the truth of real gold, the personality is an imitation of our true identity. There is a desire to remain attached to the personality at all costs because it depends on this perceived separation for its survival. Without this separation it thinks it will die. It is just the opposite.

God's nature is unconditional but the personality would rather have it according to its own terms and conditions because it gets pleasure from creating its own golden calf. It does not know God. Prepare to be surprised for Matthew 7:23: "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'. Notice the contrast between what IS God, which does not have to lift a finger and the personality which has to think, believe or do something to earn its salvation. The personality moves away from what IS by grasping and pushing while the true identity doesn't lift a finger yet is one with the all-powerful. If the personality were to simply allow what IS without trying to reach or grasp for some thought, belief or scripture it feels it will fall into an abyss. Here is the unconscious fear that is operating underneath the desire for separation. We need to own this, feel it in its entirety over and over again, examine it, and figure out where it comes from and how it operates to make us feel separate. This usually brings in more fear and feelings of inadequacy because we don't know how to deal with it nor the associated shame and guilt as it's also lots of hard work (we'd prefer something more convenient) but let's understand this fear does not come from God. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18.

The fear is nothing more than a projection of the mind of the personality. It is not real but if we feel the personality is all we have than we are super-attached because we'd rather have that than nothing. We need to understand the personality is only a tiny fraction of who and what we really are. We are magnificent beings with all the attributes of God at our disposal. These are not the limited and conditional versions of love, strength, compassion, kindness etc. These are the unconditional attributes that come from God which are always present. We don't have to identity with this personality when we are aware of our true identity which is one with God. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

 

[chrysostom]

He taught love and mercy, and roasting someone in a fire for eternity is not about love. It brings out the worst sadism that is in people's minds.

amen

 

[Mickiel]

Why would God need a hell? To satisfy the Christian lust for it? To imprison the bad guys so they cannot run around in eternity? To always have an example of God winning the game? I mean, why hell?

In Isaiah 57:16, and this is God speaking, not a prophet, not a biblical writer, its a word from God himself;," For I will NOT contend forever! I will NOT always be angry, that spirit will stop in me, AND in the SOULS I HAVE MADE!" I mean how much clearer does this need to get? Here we have God himself stating that his way is not to " Contend forever", which means that he will NOT allow sin to exist forever in his eternity! Nor would he allow a human body that he has made to exist in physical torment forever! And this is God talking, and he is talking right over the heads of much of Christiandom; they are not getting it!

Hey, once God has spoken something, it just does not matter what anyonelse is saying! And you can take that to the bank of knowledge!

This is again good news for us sinners, we don't have to contend with the Christian hell forever. We don't have to fear that horrid message that is masquerading as good news.

 

[Mickiel]

Now, WHY is Christianity and many religions teaching this eternity in hell? Are they evil? No, they are not teaching this because they are evil; they are teaching it because they think its true! I mean, to them, it is truth. There are many good people in Christianity and religions, they actually mean well, and most of them have inherited these teachings, passed down through history to them.

Now, can the truth of God be perverted and changed into something totally different than its original intent? It most certainly can, and mostly in believers of God! Romans 1:25, " Who changed the truth of God into a lie!" And the focus here is NOT on worldly unbelievers, this is mainly speaking of people who accepted God's word to be truth in the first place! You can't make the truth of God into a lie, to a person who was deceived in the first place, what kind of sense does that make? The people being deceived here are believers! Truth carriers!

When Jesus said in Matt. 24:5 that many shall come, " In his name", and deceive many, he meant they will be a church that worships him! They will BELIEVE in his name, teach his name, say they represent his name; he did NOT mean they would call themselves " Jesus", although that has happened a few times. They will tell the world that they follow Christ, and yet deceive MANY! This is part of what Jesus meant in Matt. 11:12, " From the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force!'

The doctrine of eternal hell suffering is the most violent doctrine EVER! And in the minds of MANY unbelievers , the reputation of God and heaven is suffering from this unholy message, and its bearers are taking the Kingdom by the sheer force of this doctrine. Just charging head on and plowing down sinners all along the way!

 

[Prizebeatz1]

The idea of hell is one example of the effects of perceived separation. It is a projection of the ego that does not want to own what it has created. It's only natural not to want to be buried in one's own coffin. Why would the ego admit it made a mistake? That would make it weak, wrong and bad. The good news is it's okay to admit if we've made a mistake. We can pick up and move on with the knowledge that there is something better than anything the ego can conjure up on it's own. God is abundantly gracious, always forgiving. It is the personality which refuses to forgive itself and others which is manifested in this idea of hell.

 

[Mickiel]

The idea of hell is one example of the effects of perceived separation. .

You truly are locked in on God not being separate from people; interesting dedication. I view it far differently.

In Romans 11:7-8, " What then? Israel has not obtained that which it looks for; but the election has obtained it, " And the rest were blinded." God has given them a " Spirit of stupor", so that they cannot see or hear, unto this day. Why would God blind people who he did not want separate from him? Why would God purposely make a people completely ignorant of him, if he wanted them close to him?

In Romans 11:32 God continues the separation by including ALL of humanity into unbelief; and this is one reason WHY All of humanity will be saved, because God was behind them all being blinded. Don't you think for a minute that satan deceived the whole world, ( in every human century in history), without the direct permission of God. The story of Job reveals that satan cannot assault humanity, without God's permission.

God would not have this world blinded, only to condemn it for not standing up to the darkness. And this world cannot be blinded, outside of God's will. As hard as this truth may seem, we get through this mess much better if God was involved in it.

 

[freelight]

insights into non-duality.......

insights into non-duality.......

I'd like to call up this issue of perceived separation from God. Why do we suppose this belief is so precious to the personality? What if we were to suspend this belief long enough to be shown what is real? I detect the personality disbelieves in the oneness, the unity, the wholeness, the miraculousness of a God undivided? It simply doesn't know any better. All of the attempts at dividing God also translates into dividing ourselves. That is a big part of why there is so much turmoil in the world. The personality is dysfunctional with a rather nasty ability to project. Just as false gold points to the truth of real gold, the personality is an imitation of our true identity. There is a desire to remain attached to the personality at all costs because it depends on this perceived separation for its survival. Without this separation it thinks it will die. It is just the opposite.

God's nature is unconditional but the personality would rather have it according to its own terms and conditions because it gets pleasure from creating its own golden calf. It does not know God. Prepare to be surprised for Matthew 7:23: "Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'. Notice the contrast between what IS God, which does not have to lift a finger and the personality which has to think, believe or do something to earn its salvation. The personality moves away from what IS by grasping and pushing while the true identity doesn't lift a finger yet is one with the all-powerful. If the personality were to simply allow what IS without trying to reach or grasp for some thought, belief or scripture it feels it will fall into an abyss. Here is the unconscious fear that is operating underneath the desire for separation. We need to own this, feel it in its entirety over and over again, examine it, and figure out where it comes from and how it operates to make us feel separate. This usually brings in more fear and feelings of inadequacy because we don't know how to deal with it nor the associated shame and guilt as it's also lots of hard work (we'd prefer something more convenient) but let's understand this fear does not come from God. "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18.

The fear is nothing more than a projection of the mind of the personality. It is not real but if we feel the personality is all we have than we are super-attached because we'd rather have that than nothing. We need to understand the personality is only a tiny fraction of who and what we really are. We are magnificent beings with all the attributes of God at our disposal. These are not the limited and conditional versions of love, strength, compassion, kindness etc. These are the unconditional attributes that come from God which are always present. We don't have to identity with this personality when we are aware of our true identity which is one with God. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

All this comes from the world of illusion (maya), the sense of separation, otherness, difference,...but its part of this space-time manifold, our human experience, the realm of 'duality'. When we realize oneness with 'God', there is no longer 'seperation', 'difference', 'otherness',...but only 'God' (the omnipresent ONE),...'God' Alone, 'God' Only (all being Spirit), and this is the essence of 'non-duality' (there not being 'two' since all is of the one universal essence, no matter what 'forms' appear). This is the ultimate understanding of 'God being all in all',....since 'God' is in reality All That IS. - all else are mirrored reflections, perceptions, fragmented translations/interpretations.

Since 'God' is All There IS,....a projection of the localized 'heaven' or 'hell' is more or less relative to that individual mind perceiving or experiencing such, however modified or conditioned. A lake of fire therefore, being 'figurative' language is only 'imagined', just as 'God' is a 'consuming fire',....and that fire is often portrayed as 'purifying', consuming all that is not like its own nature or changing the constitution or form of that which it envelops, so in the process all is brought back to its original elements of purity. All that is not 'God' dissolves, into all that God already IS. 'God' already always IS the one universal absolute reality. There is nowhere outside of 'God', no place empty of Him. So to assume a place of 'eternal seperation' from reality must be a projection of the separated ego itself, which is bound by its own illusion, and is not free until those illusions are abandoned.

Since 'God' is One, and omnipresent....there cannot be a 'presence' beyond His. There is no beyond 'God' the infinite.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

You truly are locked in on God not being separate from people; interesting dedication. I view it far differently.

In Romans 11:7-8, " What then? Israel has not obtained that which it looks for; but the election has obtained it, " And the rest were blinded." God has given them a " Spirit of stupor", so that they cannot see or hear, unto this day. Why would God blind people who he did not want separate from him? Why would God purposely make a people completely ignorant of him, if he wanted them close to him?

In Romans 11:32 God continues the separation by including ALL of humanity into unbelief; and this is one reason WHY All of humanity will be saved, because God was behind them all being blinded. Don't you think for a minute that satan deceived the whole world, ( in every human century in history), without the direct permission of God. The story of Job reveals that satan cannot assault humanity, without God's permission.

God would not have this world blinded, only to condemn it for not standing up to the darkness. And this world cannot be blinded, outside of God's will. As hard as this truth may seem, we get through this mess much better if God was involved in it.

That is one way to see it too. I used to resort to searching the scriptures for answers as well but it confined me. I now know there is a presence deep down inside each one of us. The beauty of this presence is that if it is in me then it is in you too. This presence puts me in touch with something that has access to infinite intelligence. It is one with the answers to all questions and it often erases the desire to even ask a question at all. There is no desire for anything. It is ultimate fulfillment and completion past the maximum. When Jesus said we are able to do greater miracles than he, he was not joking. Get in touch with your own inner divinity and I bet you will come back speaking things that have previously been unknown to an average person as well. God is real but the path is perilous. It cannot be faked or done half-heartedly. One literally has to be willing to place it all on the line, including one's very identity multiple multiple times. It honestly feels like dying a thousand deaths but in the long run its more difficult not to do it. It's a purification process that is a lifelong committment. One's whole life becomes a meditation. When Jesus says to count the cost before building a house he really meant it. Sorry I'm at work and can't quote the scripture but I think u know what I mean. This stuff is of another category altogether but God is 200% real and way bigger and better than what we've been taught. I highly recommend finding this out for yourself. Please do not take my word for it.

 

[freelight]

The idea of hell is one example of the effects of perceived separation. It is a projection of the ego that does not want to own what it has created. It's only natural not to want to be buried in one's own coffin. Why would the ego admit it made a mistake? That would make it weak, wrong and bad. The good news is it's okay to admit if we've made a mistake. We can pick up and move on with the knowledge that there is something better than anything the ego can conjure up on it's own. God is abundantly gracious, always forgiving. It is the personality which refuses to forgive itself and others which is manifested in this idea of hell.

Let go, and let 'God' BE

- this means just be what you always already ARE, no matter what temporal personality or ego you assume in any space or time. The True Self, that is 'God' (pure spirit-energy-consciousness) always remains as that which sees and knows all.

Truth is indivisible, only perceptions differentiate and are subject to 'interpretation'.

 

[Mickiel]

That is one way to see it too. I used to resort to searching the scriptures for answers as well but it confined me. I now know there is a presence deep down inside each one of us. The beauty of this presence is that if it is in me then it is in you too. This presence puts me in touch with something that has access to infinite intelligence. It is one with the answers to all questions and it often erases the desire to even ask a question at all. There is no desire for anything. It is ultimate fulfillment and completion past the maximum. When Jesus said we are able to do greater miracles than he, he was not joking. Get in touch with your own inner divinity and I bet you will come back speaking things that have previously been unknown to an average person as well. God is real but the path is perilous. It cannot be faked or done half-heartedly. One literally has to be willing to place it all on the line, including one's very identity multiple multiple times. It honestly feels like dying a thousand deaths but in the long run its more difficult not to do it. It's a purification process that is a lifelong committment. One's whole life becomes a meditation. When Jesus says to count the cost before building a house he really meant it. Sorry I'm at work and can't quote the scripture but I think u know what I mean. This stuff is of another category altogether but God is 200% real and way bigger and better than what we've been taught. I highly recommend finding this out for yourself. Please do not take my word for it.

I am not into the " Inner divinity" thing, I see nothing good in the flesh of man. I personally don't think anyone is good but God, but that is just my view. I think goodness exist in humanity to a certain degree ; some people are more nice than others. There will be an end to the flesh of man, its just temporary physical chemical existence, none of it worth magnifying. I think we have seen the best that man can do ; we are designed to go so far, and then no further in this flesh. There is no future for the flesh of man.

That flesh and its sinful nature, is WHY we are separate from God. Isaiah 59:2, " But your sins have separated you from your God, your sins has hid his face from you." I understand that you don't see this separation, but I see it. I know it exist and why. And I know it will stay that way until God himself bridges the gulf.

 

[Timotheos]

I never attempted to say death means being tortured in hell forever. Death is a spiritual state of being dead to God - the end result of this state is that you spend eternity apart from God - hell.

I hope that clarifies it.

Yes, eternal life is for those who are in Christ - but eternal existance in hell is not eternal life. Jesus explains what eternal life is - it is knowing Jesus and knowing the Father (John 17:3). This eternal life is a present reality for the Christian (John 3:36) - and it reaches fulfillment by spending eternity with God.

Again, my point in saying any of this is to reject your simplistic interpretation of Romans 6:23. Again, Paul said he was dead.

So...You reject what Romans 6:23 says?
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord". It seems rather straightforward to me...Unless someone wants to believe something other than what it says...Hmmm

"Eternal existence...is not eternal life". Coulda fooled me. How can someone have eternal existence without having eternal life? I think you are attempting to cloud the issue.

 

[Timotheos]

Thank you. Okay, just from your list, let me ask you something. Humans have a body and a consciousness, which of those verses show both being killed forever? Mind you, I do not believe in eternal punishing, nor do I believe in eternity of a fleshly body. But neither do I believe in eternal death for a human.

What? The Bible does not say anything about a person's consciousness living on while the person is dead.

 

[Timotheos]

I ask you this for a reason, there is only one biblical scripture that I know of where the body and the consciousness is mentioned in same sentence, Matt. 10:28, Christ said to fear him who " Is ABLE" to kill BOTH the body and the consciousness of a man, but it never states that he ever did or would do it. That is destroy BOTH.

Matthew 10:28 specifically says "fear the one who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna" which would be pure nonsense if nobody were able to destroy both soul and body. And actually there are plenty of verses in the Bible which specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed. You seem to be nit-picking the Bible in order to hang onto your doctrine. That is what the eternal tormentists do.

 

[Timotheos]

Scripture seems to indicate, however, that the unrighteous are conscious of their predicament of eternal death (i.e. separation from God).

Scripture?

Scripture indicates that they will be "ash". Is ash conscious of it's predicament?

 

[Mickiel]

What? The Bible does not say anything about a person's consciousness living on while the person is dead.

Sure it does, in fact, every single human being that has died, they really are not dead, their body is just dead, their consciousness is still alive; its just sleep. Matt. 9:24.

 

[Mickiel]

Matthew 10:28 specifically says "fear the one who is able to destroy both the soul and the body in Gehenna" which would be pure nonsense if nobody were able to destroy both soul and body. And actually there are plenty of verses in the Bible which specifically state that the wicked will be destroyed. You seem to be nit-picking the Bible in order to hang onto your doctrine. That is what the eternal tormentists do.

God can destroy both body and consciousness of a human, I have never seen him destroy both in scripture, and I await you showing him doing both to a human. And I have no doctrines to hold on to; I am not in a religion, and I follow no man or group; I walk alone in my view.

 

[Prizebeatz1]

All this comes from the world of illusion (maya), the sense of separation, otherness, difference,...but its part of this space-time manifold, our human experience, the realm of 'duality'. When we realize oneness with 'God', there is no longer 'seperation', 'difference', 'otherness',...but only 'God' (the omnipresent ONE),...'God' Alone, 'God' Only (all being Spirit), and this is the essence of 'non-duality' (there not being 'two' since all is of the one universal essence, no matter what 'forms' appear). This is the ultimate understanding of 'God being all in all',....since 'God' is in reality All That IS. - all else are mirrored reflections, perceptions, fragmented translations/interpretations.

Since 'God' is All There IS,....a projection of the localized 'heaven' or 'hell' is more or less relative to that individual mind perceiving or experiencing such, however modified or conditioned. A lake of fire therefore, being 'figurative' language is only 'imagined', just as 'God' is a 'consuming fire',....and that fire is often portrayed as 'purifying', consuming all that is not like its own nature or changing the constitution or form of that which it envelops, so in the process all is brought back to its original elements of purity. All that is not 'God' dissolves, into all that God already IS. 'God' already always IS the one universal absolute reality. There is nowhere outside of 'God', no place empty of Him. So to assume a place of 'eternal seperation' from reality must be a projection of the separated ego itself, which is bound by its own illusion, and is not free until those illusions are abandoned.

Since 'God' is One, and omnipresent....there cannot be a 'presence' beyond His. There is no beyond 'God' the infinite.

Amen.