Why would God need a hell?

[serpentdove]

It is what they want. Some don't want it, but they sure deserve it.

Their punishment is owing to their sin. Mal 1:4, ESV

Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel [Mal. 1:4–5].

"What God is saying to them is this: “My action and conduct with these nations which came from Esau and Jacob reveal that I loved Jacob and that I hated Esau.” After God judged Edom, they never made a comeback. When was the last time you saw an Edomite? They are just not doing business today. They went out of style years ago. God judged Edom, and this action of His looks like loving and hating. And God says to Israel, “I demonstrated that I loved you.” At the beginning, He never made that statement because He had to wait until it worked itself out. This reveals, therefore, that God’s choice is neither capricious nor arbitrary. God does not make choices like that. There has to be something to back it up. God had a real relationship with His people. He was the Father of the nation; He was their Lord, their God, and also their Judge. And he judged them most severely. In fact, it would seem that later on He judged Israel more severely than He judged Edom—but that was when Israel rejected the Messiah.

There is a great deal said today about “God is love.” It is an abstract statement to say that God is love. He says, “I have loved you and I have demonstrated it.” God was a long time telling the human family that He loved them, but He demonstrated it long before He said it. He demonstrated it from the very beginning—in the lives of Adam and Eve, from the time of the call of Abraham, and right down to the present." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophets (Malachi) (electronic ed., Vol. 33, pp. 18–19). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

 

[Ben Masada]

In Rom. 11:26, " All Israel shall be saved." Don't you think for a minute that all Israel are holy people, they are not; they are just as sinful as you and I and some of them unbelievers. But the biblical point here is the salvation of ALL of them; its a GIVEN! God gives salvation to whole nations!

If all Israel will be saved one way or another, why would Paul struggle so hard to build his church with Jews? What I do not understand about this is that he kept on claiming that he had been assigned as an apostle to the Gentiles and never left the Jews in peace as if Gentiles were to be found in the synagogues of the Jews. All his life from his first station in Damascus and all the way to his last station in Rome, he never indeed left the Jews in peach. (Acts 9:1,2 and 28:17) What was going on with him?

 

[Prizebeatz1]

not perceived , very real

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

I found the truth is that we are never separate from God. Never were, never will be (the purity of being born from a virgin points to timeless omnipresence). This is the bottom line of the gospel message but it's not profitable so it's overlooked in favor of something else. One example of hell is the constant thought patterns that aim to keep us separated from what is infinite and eternal. The mind is a tool of the personality and it believes if it stops thinking it will disintegrate into an empty void so it hardly ever quits. It's exhausting. There is true rest on the other side. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

 

[Zeke]

Their punishment is owing to their sin. Mal 1:4, ESV

Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.

And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel [Mal. 1:4–5].

"What God is saying to them is this: “My action and conduct with these nations which came from Esau and Jacob reveal that I loved Jacob and that I hated Esau.” After God judged Edom, they never made a comeback. When was the last time you saw an Edomite? They are just not doing business today. They went out of style years ago. God judged Edom, and this action of His looks like loving and hating. And God says to Israel, “I demonstrated that I loved you.” At the beginning, He never made that statement because He had to wait until it worked itself out. This reveals, therefore, that God’s choice is neither capricious nor arbitrary. God does not make choices like that. There has to be something to back it up. God had a real relationship with His people. He was the Father of the nation; He was their Lord, their God, and also their Judge. And he judged them most severely. In fact, it would seem that later on He judged Israel more severely than He judged Edom—but that was when Israel rejected the Messiah.

There is a great deal said today about “God is love.” It is an abstract statement to say that God is love. He says, “I have loved you and I have demonstrated it.” God was a long time telling the human family that He loved them, but He demonstrated it long before He said it. He demonstrated it from the very beginning—in the lives of Adam and Eve, from the time of the call of Abraham, and right down to the present." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophets (Malachi) (electronic ed., Vol. 33, pp. 18–19). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

The Bible teaches through duality/twins, You have yet to discern the line between the two Gods being presented, one of the flesh, the other of the spirit, one ruled through violence and fear that produced slaves and rebels, the other through truth and peace that produces Sons.
You mix the two together which is why you are double minded, you like some of the traits of the God of the flesh, and pervert the traits of the God of the Spirit by building a Deity with feet of clay.

Galatians 4:24-28, Luke 17:20-21.

 

[serpentdove]

You have yet to discern the line between the two God's...

:yawn: Deut 6:4

Recommended reading:

The Jewish Trinity: How the Old Testament Reveals the Christian Godhead by Michael S. Heiser. Heiser, M. S. (2014). OT291 The Jewish Trinity: How the Old Testament Reveals the Christian Godhead. Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press.

 

[Mickiel]

The reason why hell is obsolete is because of Christ, and Christ is of a universal mind when it comes to how many of us make it. Notice Romans 9:5, Christ is " over ALL", again notice the constant use of this universal term, " All." You think the great Christ will loose anyone he is Lord over? Christ is not a human any more, he is the second most powerful being in existence; and human salvation is something he died for. His Father God is of GREAT power; these beings don't play around, they get accomplished what they want to.

It is impossible for God to not get his way! Job 23:13, " What God desires, that he DOES! And 1 Tim. 2:3-4 is clear that he wants all of us saved, it is then academic, and no Christian teaching or doubt can stop him. How can a human mind that even partly understands God's awesome power even think there is such a thing as God not getting something he wants? But that is how far we have degraded, we will even limit God! With whom ALL things are possible. We are VERY fortunate that God is in control of salvation, and not Christians, we would be doomed for sure. Not because Christians are evil, their minds and belief are just not enough to save all of humanity.

 

[serpentdove]

[Matt. 22:13–14] please don't use this passage
if
you don't understand it

:yawn: You've been invited. linger: Better RSVP. Jud 11 :burnlib:

 

[sfontel]

Simple!

To put there everyone the deliberately dont want to live with Him!

Since day one He never obligated anyone to be in His presence...He will continue to enforce that forever!

God bless!

 

[Mickiel]

This awful mentality of " Casting humans away" has absolutely nothing to do with God. But this hellish thinking has creeped into the belief system of believers, How? Rev. 12:9, satan has deceived the whole world, and believers are included in this. It had to require a GREAT power to deceive the church and form this unholy doctrine of devils. In Rom. 11:15, " For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?" Casting humans away into the Christian hell has nothing to do with world reconciliation. The devil has used his power to implant unholy doctrines into the churches, and over time those doctrines have grown in strength and power. They blanket the total conscious mind of the believer, and totally convinces them.

A brother just posted on this thread that God would not be righteous if there was no eternal hell. He thinks torturing humans for eternity is actually righteous. Through such thinking I can know and see the real power of the devil, he is a masterful deceiver.

 

[Mickiel]

I found the truth is that we are never separate from God. Never were, never will be (the purity of being born from a virgin points to timeless omnipresence). This is the bottom line of the gospel message but it's not profitable so it's overlooked in favor of something else. One example of hell is the constant thought patterns that aim to keep us separated from what is infinite and eternal. The mind is a tool of the personality and it believes if it stops thinking it will disintegrate into an empty void so it hardly ever quits. It's exhausting. There is true rest on the other side. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

I think sin seperates us from God, on the surface, but beneath that surface, I would say he has always been there. The image of God is consciousness, to say we were created in God's image, means we are conscious, like God is conscious; and that is where God can connect any time he wishes. Consciousness is really " The Spirit in man", that is the vital connection that God can tune into and make his appeal. I think that is where we cannot be separated from him. That spirit came from him, is a part of him; and its how Christ is all and IN all, through our consciousness.

 

[jamie]

If all Israel will be saved one way or another, why would Paul struggle so hard to build his church with Jews?

Paul dealt with spiritual issues and in the spiritual realm there is no ethnicity. Rome was a Gentile city but there were men there who knew the law. Why would he ignore them?

 

[Mickiel]

Our human destiny is to be changed, and I think the lake of fire will help this change, Mark 9:49. We don't need hell fire, we will need the lake of fire. The demon world fights against this change given to humanity, they want us to stay in flesh and sin, and stay in it forever, they are the origin of the eternal hell doctrine. God is going to change us, ALL of us. Notice 2 Corinth. 15:51, " We shall ALL be changed!"

That change will be the new birth the bible speaks of.

 

[serpentdove]

Simple!

To put there everyone the deliberately dont want to live with Him!

Since day one He never obligated anyone to be in His presence...

Yes, he's not sick--they are (Mt 9:12)--he's not.

Too bad they don't see his beauty (Is 33:17).

"Too bad." :chz4brnz: ~ Seth Brundle, The Fly

They'll see the wrath of his face instead (Re 6:16). opcorn:

 

[Prizebeatz1]

I think sin seperates us from God, on the surface, but beneath that surface, I would say he has always been there. The image of God is consciousness, to say we were created in God's image, means we are conscious, like God is conscious; and that is where God can connect any time he wishes. Consciousness is really " The Spirit in man", that is the vital connection that God can tune into and make his appeal. I think that is where we cannot be separated from him. That spirit came from him, is a part of him; and its how Christ is all and IN all, through our consciousness.

I am feeling what you are saying and I'm in agreement for the most part (thank you for your passionate posts too). The word sin to me implies judgement which is based in fear IMO which does not come from God. I find it comes from the personality but most people don't want to admit that the devil is a part of us so we have this ingenious thing called projection. The fear and judgement is unconsciously cast away from us and it shows up even in our view of God (see the God of the OT). The traditional view of God and hell is embedded with psychological intimidation and terror which is passed down through the generations without much questioning. Supposedly there was no challenging church doctrine and the crucifying, violence and warfare was there as a deterrent. This deterrent is embedded in the story of Jesus and its taken to be normal. It's not.

I don't think most people understand the real meaning of Christ. Most just accept what is easy and convenient. It provides an excuse not to find out the truth for themselves. This does more overall harm than good because it replaces the divinity of the soul with something else. But there are no substitutes. Meanwhile the world is rampant with violence because on the deepest level, people cannot feel good enough about themselves so we have the compensation mechanism of religion for example. Yet the soul contains the feeling of infinite self-worth. Nothing's going to replace it. I do think consciousness is a function of the soul, however. Consciousness seems to be only the tip of the iceberg. The more conscious I become the more aware of how much unconsciousness exists too.

 

[Mickiel]

I am feeling what you are saying and I'm in agreement for the most part (thank you for your passionate posts too). The word sin to me implies judgement which is based in fear IMO which does not come from God. I find it comes from the personality but most people don't want to admit that the devil is a part of us so we have this ingenious thing called projection. The fear and judgement is unconsciously cast away from us even in our view of God (see the God of the OT). The traditional view of God and hell is embedded with psychological intimidation and terror which is passed down through the generations without much questioning. Supposedly there was no challenging church doctrine and the crucifying, violence and warfare was there as a deterrent. This deterrent is embedded in the story of Jesus and its taken to be normal. It's not.

I don't think most people understand the real meaning of Christ. Most just accept what is easy and convenient. It provides an excuse not to find out the truth for themselves. This does more overall harm than good because it replaces the divinity of the soul within with something else. But there are no substitutes. Meanwhile the world is rampant with violence because on the deepest level, people cannot feel good enough about themselves so we have the compensation mechanism of religion for example. I think consciousness is a function of the soul, however. Consciousness seems to be only the tip of the iceberg. The more conscious I become the more aware of how much unconsciousness exists too.

I agree; you know, we can only be conscious of, those things we are conscious of, and consciousness is the governor of our behavior. Unfortunately humanity has based its consciousness of God, on preachers and teachers in the church, drawing their information from them on the most part. And that is one way distortion has seeped into how we view God. Actually there was an historical time that the church was challenged, and it was science that challenged them. Science used to be governed by the church, but it grew tired of " church regulated science", and they rebelled and left the church; and that was known as " The scientific revolution." Science would rather define the cosmos as they saw it, rather than depend on Bishops.

The church has gone through many changes since then, often at odds with science; and that battle still brews. But science cannot explain consciousness , they are not spiritual in their search for truth, yet because science searches for truth, I think that search will eventually lead to God, its unavoidable.

And I certainly agree that most believers do not understand Christ and his mission to save an entire world; that is just " Too Good for the believing mind to wrap itself around." Too great of a salvation. Too great of a destiny; most believers are just not conscious of this incredible inheritance.

 

[Mickiel]

Why would a God need a hell? Humanity is oppressed and depressed, we need a God of salvation, and we have one. In Psalms 103:6, " The Lord executeth righteousness and judgment for ALL that are oppressed." Again the scriptures magnifies ALL; not just some of us, but ALL of us are oppressed and in need of this magnificent God.

Notice vs. 9-12, "He will NOT always chide; neither will he keep his anger forever. He has NOT dealt with us after our sins, nor rewarded us according to our sins. For as heaven is high above the earth, so great is his Mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far has he REMOVED our sins from us!" This is the REAL God, how God really views our sins; he gets rid of them, not get rid of us. His wrath is directed at sin, not the sinner. And this is Great hope for the world of unbelievers.

 

[way 2 go]

I found the truth is that we are never separate from God. Never were, never will be

where did you learn that ?
evidence or proof that people are never separate from God ?

I have evidence to the opposite

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

(the purity of being born from a virgin points to timeless omnipresence)

Jesus did not inherit Adams sin

This is the bottom line of the gospel message but it's not profitable so it's overlooked in favor of something else.

nowhere do you have Jesus saying no one is "separate from me"

One example of hell is the constant thought patterns that aim to keep us separated from what is infinite and eternal.

is that a contradiction of 1st statement "never separate from God"

The mind is a tool of the personality and it believes if it stops thinking it will disintegrate into an empty void so it hardly ever quits. It's exhausting. There is true rest on the other side. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

what religion are you?

 

[Apple7]

Why would God need a place like this traditional eternal hell? Why would he co-exist with such a place in eternity? Does God need a garbage dump for humans? How and when did the grave become the traditional explination of hell?

Sin is not tolerated in the presence of God.

That is why the very first sinner (i.e. Satan and his minions) were cast to the earth.

The entire Universe was created for the conquest of evil.

 

[Greg Jennings]

That is why the very first sinner (i.e. Satan and his minions) were cast to the earth.

Remind me which book in the Bible tells the story of Lucipher's fall again?

 

[Apple7]

Remind me which book in the Bible tells the story of Lucipher's fall again?

There are numerous accounts of the fall of Satan.