Why would God need a hell?

[patrick jane]

In Rev. 7:9 John saw a world of humans representing every nation on earth, he said no one could number them they were so many; all saved and standing before the throne of God. This is good news for humanity, all of us can make it.

Yep, by hearing believing and trusting 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


Colossians 1:14 KJV - Ephesians 1:13 KJV -

 

[bsmitts]

There are times that God will seek after people who don't even seek him; this is good news for unbelievers. Isaiah 65:1, " I am sought of them that asked not for me: I am found by them that seek me not. I said look at me, a nation that was not called by me." God will call whole nations that ignore him, because he loves them. Read the whole 65th chapter and see how God called nations that continually provoked him to his face; that is why he called Israel, not because they were obedient, but because they were disobedient, to show the world that salvation will come to disobedient people; he will forgive.

What a wonderful message.

Paul also quoted that scripture in Isaiah in Romans 10:20 And there in Romans, he's referring the gospel being moved away from unbelieving Israel to the gentiles to provoke them to jealousy. Romans 11:11 However, later in the chapter we see that the gentiles are also warned. Romans 11:21 Paul also explains that If Israel believes again, God will again show them mercy. Romans 11:23 You are right about one thing. The lost cannot seek God. Romans 3:10-11 Need more evidence? Romans 10:14 So, how is salvation obtained? Obviously through God's sovereign will. Romans 9:15-16

 

[Mickiel]

Some people believe Jesus death was selfish, that he died for only believers. Jesus died for all, because he loves all, in Rev. 1:5 it says, " Unto him that loved US and washed US from our sins in his blood." The blood of Christ was universal on that cross, so then was his salvation. Salvation is not segregated , its not partial, it flows to everyone, because ALL have sinned. Its ungodly to separate believers and unbelievers from salvation, in Jude 19, " These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."

Judgment begins at the house of God, the people of God ought to be the ones hoping and praying for unbelievers life! Searching the scriptures to show them that they will live and be given repentance and freedom from the sin that blinds them; and we need to hold on to that hope FOR THEM! If the righteous scarcely talk about unbelievers being saved, what kind of Gospel is the gospel of God? 1 Pet.4:17-19.

 

[bsmitts]

Again the future of all humanity is to serve God. Romans 14:11, " For it is written, as I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me and every tongue shall confess to God!" This is predestiny, the salvation of all is predestination, nothing can stop it. Its uncanny that some believers in God are fighting this, but they cannot stop the predestined will of God.

Either you are purposely trying to mislead others or You have absolutely no Idea what you're talking about. What does Christ tell us? Matthew 7:13-14 Did you get that about the gate which leads to life? "few there be that find it." The "everyone is going to end up in heaven gospel" is simply a false gospel." There is only one Gospel. It's called The Gospel. If there is an adjective added before the word "Gospel," you sir, have a false gospel, and false gospels and false teachers deeply grieve me, as I am a believer in Jesus Christ.

 

[Mickiel]

If the righteous are teaching that salvation is scarce, what hope is there for the unrighteous? Believers in God CANNOT make themselves stumbling blocks to the salvation of unbelievers. You think yourself saved, then you shut yourself off from the world of sinners, as if they don't need you; its now everyone for themselves, and to hell with those who don't make it. Where is the love?

Where is the love for the salvation of men?

In Rev.2:4 Jesus had this against his church at Ephesus, they " Left" their first love; the salvation of men. They got caught up in the pride of life, their lives meant more than others. This selfishness is an enemy of the cross, because it will " Quickly send humans to some hell", and cause a " Quick draw condemning attitude", you will condemn people before you even get to know them, your salvation fuse is now shortened. Sinners are babies struggling to be nourished, unbelievers are the reason Jesus came here. How many times does the bible have to say that? THEY are the focus of God!

Often our own lust for the Kingdom makes us " Kings before our time", and we look at unbelievers as if they are from another planet.

 

[Arthur Brain]

:nono: Heard the Christmas story? Know about Jesus Christ? As a 7 year old, when I heard what God had done, I KNEW it was a big deal.

Well, okay, good for you then.

Like in this life, we have a place as believers and unbelievers. In the next, there is a separation, and necessary or it would be just like here, forever. I try to take truths in increments when I have a hang-up. God chose Jesus Christ His Son as the means for redeeming people. The peril must have been real or God wouldn't have chose this specific way.

So, you just see people as one or the other then? It's no more necessary than it is a point of view of your own Lon. It's perfectly feasible that it could be completely different as to what you believe is the 'way to go'.

Scripture talks about suffering with those who suffer. I have family I care about, so I don't think lack of empathy is my problem, Arthur. You are correct, I didn't feel my wife's pain while going through cancer treatment, but she is flesh of my flesh.

So do I and when people tell me that they're either part of the "elect" or damned to hell then I find that abhorrent along with the 'theology' that "supports" it.

I think you do, and you and I aren't. Your empathy is a good thing. Job certainly wrestled with God, but he also loved God. In my Christianity, I don't understand everything of God. I am but a finite creature trying not to redefine the infinite into finite terms. There are a lot of things I don't get, but I do genuinely get John 3:11-21

Why would an almighty loving God sentence finite limited creations to such a cruel and unusual 'punishment' for lacking understanding in one speck of an existence?

:doh: Then there is no point, Arthur. You might as well make up the god you want to believe in. You pretty much just closed off my only reason for entering the conversation with you: to point to the God who exists, rather than one we make up as we go. It does illustrate the difference in thread between gods though.

To point to the God you believe exists and operates. I could never be a Calvinist Lon.

There are different forms of Calvinism, and this one is fatalism of which I do not subscribe. I don't believe God nor we sit back during this life, but both are intricately part of the story played out. I don't believe in fatalism.

Sorry Lon but yes you do, else quit with the Calvinist moniker. Calvinism at its core dictates that some people are destined to either be part of the elect or 'reprobate' and it's decreed already.

Let's just take the current thread. There are only two sides that matter, the side who are giving scripture, and the side that rejects the scriptures. There isn't much need to fracture the 'scriptures' side. It serves no purpose, rather it is about what scripture says and if one accepts it. This thread is far from even that first step. You have cut that off as well. There is no point after this post for me to continue. It would place me on the "non-scripture" side and I'm not willing to take part of that conversation. Such is merely the collision of opinion that cannot matter. I didn't get to write history, just interpret it. It becomes fiction after that.

You've had plenty of scriptures provided if not by myself, so you can drop that baloney.

Yes, when you form a rally with not much deep thought, but reactionary angst, it is a sign of youth. We don't often see senior citizens with picket signs. We tend to think a bit more before congregating.

I know plenty of older people who don't fit some silly cultural stereotype frankly. My parents were hardly "liberals" and it wasn't through 'reactionary angst' that they both balked at the notion of eternal suffering, so please get a new angle or get a grip. If you actually thought deeper on the subject you'd understand why most people are appalled at such a prospect.

This particular topic requires scriptural reading and contemplation, when wrestling with the God of the universe. You seem to have cut off that part of concern so there isn't anything left I can continue with in thread or indeed many others.

Then don't, but don't pretend that you have any idea of what I've wrestled with either thanks.

 

[everready]

I agree hell is the grave. The Old Testament mentions hell 31 times, each of those times it means " Sheol", the Hebrew for grave, and nobody in the OT is ever threatened with eternal hell punishing as a result from sin, no one. Hell is mentioned 23 times in the NT, 12 times its Geena, a physical valley outside of Jerusalem in Hinnom. 10 times its Hades, still the grave. 1 time its Tartaros , in 2 Pet. 2:4, and that is a place for demons, not humans.

This teaching on eternal hell suffering has gotten out of hand and it spreaded like wild fire. It does not even match anything that God would do. But it got pinned on God.

Hell sounds like the kind of place the devil would cook up don't you think? What if it was his idea to begin with, you think its possible that's the kind of place where he would have thrown the Almighty if he overtook Gods kingdom? But his idea backfired

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I'm thinking that goes for the devil as well.

everready

 

[Arthur Brain]

Read your bible instead of Google fishing :dizzy: Googling nor imaginings are sagacious. Opposite, in fact. Both of you stop this nonsense and read your bible!

Who cares what you think? Are you God? Am I? No? Doesn't matter what 'we' think then, does it? Are you editing God, or reading God? (Editing, try reading instead).

All the new-age wacko's have flocked to this thread with grandiose opinion and self-inflation. I will repeat, read your bibles. It only matters what God thinks and what is. The rest (much "I" "me" "you" opinion of this thread) are meaningless platitudes by kindergarteners.

Who cares what you think in turn? You don't have a monopoly on what "truth" is Lon, but boy you can be incredibly arrogant and dismissive towards anyone who doesn't 'interpret' theological matters the same as you do. Take a look in the mirror dude, there's a big irony sticker peeling off the thing...

 

[Mickiel]

Either you are purposely trying to mislead others or You have absolutely no Idea what you're talking about. What does Christ tell us? Matthew 7:13-14 Did you get that about the gate which leads to life? "few there be that find it." The "everyone is going to end up in heaven gospel" is simply a false gospel." There is only one Gospel. It's called The Gospel. If there is an adjective added before the word "Gospel," you sir, have a false gospel, and false gospels and false teachers deeply grieve me, as I am a believer in Jesus Christ.

I hold no interest in leading people, and I hold no interest in any message that limits salvation. God knows that unbelievers enter into the wide gate, he knows they are confused and lost; it is not in them to direct their steps; Jeremiah 10:23, " O Lord I know the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walks to direct his steps." This is WHY they go through the wide gate, they don't know what they are doing.

I like when Jesus said, " Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Every human that walks through that wide gate, NEEDS forgiveness , grace, and help in walking the right path. And God is going to help them.

 

[bsmitts]

Some people believe Jesus death was selfish, that he died for only believers. Jesus died for all, because he loves all, in Rev. 1:5 it says, " Unto him that loved US and washed US from our sins in his blood." The blood of Christ was universal on that cross, so then was his salvation. Salvation is not segregated , its not partial, it flows to everyone, because ALL have sinned. Its ungodly to separate believers and unbelievers from salvation, in Jude 19, " These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."

Judgment begins at the house of God, the people of God ought to be the ones hoping and praying for unbelievers life! Searching the scriptures to show them that they will live and be given repentance and freedom from the sin that blinds them; and we need to hold on to that hope FOR THEM! If the righteous scarcely talk about unbelievers being saved, what kind of Gospel is the gospel of God? 1 Pet.4:17-19.

Firstly, I would be very careful when referring to the atonement, for there is some mystery about the atonement. Regardless, there are also things from scripture that we absolutely know about the atonement. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as recorded in Scripture alone for the glory of God alone. Jude 19 isn't talking about the gospel being exclusive to believers quite contrarily. Believers are to share The Gospel with all because we humans in our finite minds don't know who are God's elect and who aren't. However there is a scripture which says that believers are not to be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. This passage is not to be interpreted that believers shouldn't share The Gospel. Jude 19 It's referring to reprobate false teachers who were infiltrating churches at that time. Jude 4; Jude 12. Sadly, this is still the case today. That said, I have told you of the gospel in this post. I'll repeat The Gospel again for posterity: Salvation (from sin) is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as recorded in scripture alone for the glory of God alone. Now you've heard The Gospel. And yes, spreading The Gospel to all is what we believers are supposed to do. Mark 16:15

 

[Mickiel]

Hell sounds like the kind of place the devil would cook up don't you think?

The devil certainly helped cook it up; its the kind of place that he is destined for, 2 Pet. 2:4. The devil wants humans to share in his fate , so he cooked up hell, and has some Christians helping him sell it.

 

[Mickiel]

Firstly, I would be very careful when referring to the atonement, for there is some mystery about the atonement. Regardless, there are also things from scripture that we absolutely know about the atonement. Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as recorded in Scripture alone for the glory of God alone. Jude 19 isn't talking about separating believers and non-believers. It's referring to reprobate false teachers who were infiltrating churches at that time. Jude 4; Jude 12. That said, I have just told you of the gospel in this post. I'll repeat The Gospel: Salvation (from sin) is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone as recorded in scripture alone for the glory of God alone. Now you've heard The Gospel. Spreading The Gospel to all is what we believers are supposed to do. Mark 16:15

Limited atonement is reprobate false teaching; and allow me to give my definition of the gospel; its the good news concerning the salvation of all humans! Its the announcement that all are saved and don't have to fear religion any more; the gospel is the free gift of eternal life given to every human as an entrance to God's kingdom; tickets for all have been reserved.

 

[Zeke]

Hell sounds like the kind of place the devil would cook up don't you think? What if it was his idea to begin with, you think its possible that's the kind of place where he would have thrown the Almighty if he overtook Gods kingdom? But his idea backfired

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

I'm thinking that goes for the devil as well.

everready

Well that applies to God as well, Which is supposed to be the Model we are formed from.

 

[Arthur Brain]

You tell me: if your master is someone's enemy, and you serve that master, doesn't that make you an enemy yourself? Please do tell me you're capable of some thinking a little bit more critical and productive than "really?", or "nuh'uh!".

You were asked the question so how about you answer it instead of trying to deflect with a question of your own? Is an agnostic an 'enemy' simply because they don't have a concrete belief?

"Cut and paste", "fanciful rhetoric"? It would be nice to see a more substantial rebuttal than what amounts to a "nuh'uh" with "that's cute, did you think of that all by yourself" from you. Apparently you think I'm just blowing smoke and pretending that I can make a substantial historical case for orthodoxy. Well if think you've really got a grip on the issue then try me. Tell me what you think was going on aside from "just Origen" (your words, not mine) if you know so much about the subject.

Yes, that was a load of waffle with nought much to say and so it elicited my response in turn.

Somehow I doubt that you've even read much of early patristic literature in the first place. But hey, I can be wrong. Maybe you've spent just as many hours reading epistles, homilies, creeds, canons, councils, and commentaries.

Nope, but am I supposed to be impressed that you supposedly have? Frankly, and especially given the topic at hand, I find "intellectualizing" the notion of eternal suffering to be an abhorrent and self defeating process. I did study and delve into history where it comes to the subject but not for any academic reasons, but rather to find some hope amid a doctrinal mindset of horror.

 

[bsmitts]

Limited atonement is reprobate false teaching; and allow me to give my definition of the gospel; its the good news concerning the salvation of all humans! Its the announcement that all are saved and don't have to fear religion any more; the gospel is the free gift of eternal life given to every human as an entrance to God's kingdom; tickets for all have been reserved.

Like I said: I don't say too little nor do I say too much about the atonement because there is some mystery about it which God doesn't want us to know. And Your "definition" of The Gospel is simply your gospel and is not The Gospel at all period! Fear religion? That's silly. God says fear him. Jesus said fear not the one who can kill the body but rather fear him who can destroy both body and soul in hell. That would be God! You take away from God's word when you say "everyone" will make it to heaven. You're on dangerous ground friend. Matthew 7:13-14

 

[Mickiel]

The bible speaks in inclusive terms, universal terms, because the mind and heart of God are universal, as is his salvation. In Joel 2:28 an amazing prophecy where God promises to " Pour out his Spirit on ALL flesh!" A stunning thing to consider, everyone receiving the Spirit of God, as if its raining his Spirit. The Spirit is not exclusive or partial, it is not picky, and it is not prejudice. And I praise God for that. This is good news for unbelievers.

 

[Crucible]

God is not in the business of making wicked people 'cease to exist'. That is pretty much what a person supposes when denying the existence of Hell.
Ceasing to exist is not a punishment. It simply is what it is, and takes away the entire point of a person judged or reaping what they sow.


Numbers 16:30
But if the Lord creates a new thing, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the pit, then you will understand that these men have rejected the Lord.”

 

[freelight]

What are the wages of sin?

What are the wages of sin?

God is not in the business of making wicked people 'cease to exist'. That is pretty much what a person supposes when denying the existence of Hell.
Ceasing to exist is not a punishment. It simply is what it is, and takes away the entire point of a person judged or reaping what they sow.

Note that universal law holds (karma),...as all that is sown, shall be reaped, of course,...by nature of law. Nothing can abrogate the law of karma, as long as any actions exist, unless you attain a state of love or purity that is above all action, transcending all.

The full effect of iniquity fully embraced is 'death'. If sin produces death, then its full harvest must be 'death' in the fullest sense, once the total harvest of wilfull sin is embraced, so the so called 'punishment' of iniquity is "built into itself" naturally. That in itself is the ultimate reaping of what was sowed,.....the full harvest. It is therefore according to law, fully just, unless mercy and repentance are afforded in any space or time allotted, until such mercy-credits and ability to repent no longer exist.

My former commentary on these subjects hold, if interested. I often link back to my former posts,...but its helpful if others can also do a little homework themselves on researching older posts.

Merry Christmas

 

[bsmitts]

I hold no interest in leading people, and I hold no interest in any message that limits salvation. God knows that unbelievers enter into the wide gate, he knows they are confused and lost; it is not in them to direct their steps; Jeremiah 10:23, " O Lord I know the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walks to direct his steps." This is WHY they go through the wide gate, they don't know what they are doing.

I like when Jesus said, " Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Every human that walks through that wide gate, NEEDS forgiveness , grace, and help in walking the right path. And God is going to help them.

Proverbs 16:1-6 Actually, everyone "needs" forgiveness as no one is righteous of himself. But know this: David said in Psalms "In sin did my mother conceive me." What he means is that all of mankind is sinful by nature. The wrath of God abides on us all unless we forsake iniquity and put our trust in Christ alone to redeem us. You have to trust that God will do what is right in the end. For to say that he wont is to doubt the righteousness of God, and that is also sin. Those who end up in hell, end up there because they deserve to be there, for if they don't deserve it, then God would be unrighteous. God cannot sin. He cannot deny himself. All of his ways are upright.

 

[serpentdove]

...Cultists bother me with their attention on themselves rather than God. You are all easy to spot because you are against the Scriptures and thus against the church.

Jn 8:37