Why would God need a hell?

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Greg Jennings

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Show us the Koranic passage.

It's in the middle. There is great material both above and below the passages that are worth reading as well

"The Holy Quran has talked about Iblis (Satan) as a physical being made of fire. He is portrayed as a rebellious creature, basking in glory of the matter he was made of and showing arrogance to man, who was made of clay. To Satan’s mind, fire is far superior to clay because it can destroy clay with its power. The cause of his rebellion against God was the high regard in which God had held Adam when He created him and for his forthcoming role on earth, especially when God ordered the angels to prostrate themselves to Adam. As the Quran implies, Satan was part of the angelic group.

The Quran keeps showing pictures that depict the dialogue with Satan to make clear the grudge this creature holds against man. He asked God to grant him immortal status in this life, so that he could concentrate on his vendetta against man. In so doing, he wants to topple man from the lofty station God had put him in and rouse in him the struggle between good and evil. He spares no effort in tempting man to incline towards doing what would in the end spell disaster for his being, by dampening down man’s spirit and his position vis-à-vis God.

Through the dialogue, the Holy Quran informs us that God had granted Satan his wish for the reasons He knows best. Nevertheless, He has made it abundantly clear to him and us that his power does not go beyond luring us towards committing what is vile and showing disobedience. There is, by no means, any direct authority that could entail force, coercion, and repression that Satan can exercise on man. Indeed, it is the type of man who chooses to embark on unbelief, waywardness, trampling his faith and not experiencing a sense of enmity to Satan, who gives Satan the sway over himself. In contrast, the person who chooses the path of belief does not usually give Satan any chance to manipulate him because of the strength of his belief. Thus, Satan’s plans to mislead such a person are doomed to failure. The Quranic dialogue has sought to capture all that, highlighting the general characteristics of Satan.

Satan’s role in the story of Adam’s creation

God created Satan and honoured and favoured him over many of his creatures. This regard with which Satan was held started when He ordered the angels, Satan included, to bow down to Adam in a big celebration that was held as a sign of glorification for the new creature on account of his intrinsic characteristics, the great role that awaited him in representing God on earth, and putting all creation at his service in order to play his part in the most efficient manner.

In many verses, the Holy Quran mentions the characteristics of Satan. By and large, he is portrayed as an insignificant creature who is at odds with God, especially in the great issues. He is painted as an egoistic self-centred and arrogant person, not least for his high opinion of his physical makeup being superior to others. Satan does not seem to give genuine thought to the other characteristics that, if found in others, could make them far superior, namely the spiritual, intellectual, and behavioural. These are the qualities that make man strive to reach the highest stations while competing for a better future, through sound ideology and better work.

The Quranic verses assume different approaches to present the whole picture in scenes that seem pulsating with life, movement and liveliness, with the aim of making the gulf between man and Satan far greater on the one hand. On the other hand, importance is given to the sense of the terribleness of arrogance and indulgence in self -worth and the extent to which it can influence the lives of living beings, as happened to Satan.

Here are some of the Quranic verses that make the boundaries of the portrait more defined:

And behold, We said to the angels: “Bow down to Adam” and they bowed down. Not so Iblis (Satan): he refused and was haughty: he was of those who reject Faith. (2: 34)

It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels bow down to Adam, and they bowed down; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who bow down. (God) said: “What prevented thee from bowing down when I commanded thee?” He said: “I am better than he: Thou didst create me from fire, and him from clay.” (God) said: “Get thee down from this: it is not for thee to be arrogant here: get out, for thou art of the meanest (of creatures).” (7: 11–13)

Behold! We said to the angels: “Prostrate unto Adam”: They prostrated except Iblis (Satan): He said, “Shall I prostrate to one whom Thou didst create from clay?” He said: “Seest Thou? This is the one whom Thou hast honoured above me! If Thou wilt but respite me to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few!” (17: 61–62)

Going through these verses would suffice to draw a clear picture of Satan’s character. It is that of an arrogant creature that thinks highly of his physical fibre, so much so that he rebels against the will of God when he perceives that it clashes with the intrinsic conceited tendency of his character. Not only this, he seems bent on facing the consequences of his rebellion and not bothering about his fate, only to keep his “pride”."


http://english.bayynat.org.lb/Doctrines/salat.htm
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
The fall of the first angel is representative of mankind's downfall. We are just like that angel in that there is a part of us that is proud of the identity we have made for ourselves. Let's not miss this lesson. Think about the roles we take on as a father, cook, dentist, lawyer, Catholic, employee of the month, championship tennis player, etc. We unconsciously base our self-worth on how well we adhere to these roles. None of these are who we really are. Who we really are is the soul and it is the root of unconditional self-worth.

Traditionally our feelings of self-worth go up and down according to how well things are going. Yet the true self-worth of the soul is always shining bright and steady no matter the conditions, circumstances or situation. True self-worth comes from the soul which has the property of being born pure of the virgin. There is not one spot that it does not cover. There are no blemishes. It is uniform, universal, undivided, always everywhere at all times (or more accurately in all timelessness). Our downfall is in settling for anything less than this perfection. It is painful to feel separated from our natural state of infinite wholeness and we have to compensate with belief in religion for example. People are so far removed from being able to feel good enough about themselves that things have snowballed out of control to the point where we are killing each other. That is the effect of living with perceived disconnection from the soul which is necessary for our well-being. We think this is normal after a while and the enemy would rather not we question it. This state could be considered hell in itself, no? The time is Now.
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Let me show you somethingelse; in order for the Christian hell to be true, that means God would have to cast humans off forever. Look at Lam.3:31-32, " For the Lord will not cast off forever, but though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies." God will NOT cast humans into hell forever, not the Christian hell or the grave! He is TOO merciful! God has a MULTITUDE of Mercy! Unlimited and there for unbelievers! There for evil humans; there for all who require it.

This is how God really is!

This is not about all of mankind but only about HIS elect, HIS sheep, but not about those who are not HIS sheep: John 10:26 “But you do not believe because YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. also speaks the same message as Lam.3:31-32.

Your interpretation would force us to disagree with John 10:26 since you tell us all humans will be saved proving all are His sheep.
 

Greg Jennings

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اللَّهُ = “allah”

“allah” definition:

Written with the disjunctive alif, meaning God, i.e. the only true god, according to the most correct of the opinions respecting it. It is a proper name to the Being who exists necessarily, by Himself, comprising all of the attributes of perfection; a proper name denoting the true god (TA), comprising all the excellent divine names; a unity comprising all of the essences of existing things; the “al” being inseparable from it; not derived. It comes from the root “ilaha”, which means he served, worshipped, or adored; to adore, worship, deify any one, call any one god. He was, or became, confounded, or perplexed, and unable to see his right course. An object of worship or adoration; i.e. a god, a deity; anything that is taken as an object of worship or adoration, according to him that takes it as such. It signifies the goddess; and particularly the serpent; because it was a special object of worship of some of the ancient Arabs; or the great serpent; and the new moon.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 82 - 83
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 28 - 29



The implications…

• Observe the revealing definition for “allah”, that is given by Lane...“i.e. the only true god”
• Lane is referencing a very specific example in his definition by his illustrated example (i.e.)
• It is abundantly clear that he is referencing a “god” (lower case) to represent the “allah” of the Koran
• To re-enforce the fact that the “allah” of the Koran is no more than a “god”, and to erase any notion of error, Lane repeats his very same remarks a few lines farther down in his lexical definition for “allah”, by referencing a separate entry – this time from the legendary “Ta’j el-‘Aroos” (TA)
• (TA “a proper name denoting the true god, comprising all the excellent divine names; a unity comprising all the essence of existing things”
• Further, “allah” is derived from the root “ilaha”, which means “he was, or became, confounded, or perplexed, and unable to see his right course”
• This would hardly seem a logical definition for true deity
• “ilaha” also means “an object of worship or adoration; i.e. a god, a deity; anything that is taken as an object of worship or adoration, according to him who takes it as such”…which signifies idolatry as mentioned in Revelation
• “ilaha” also signifies the goddess; and particularly the serpent; because it was a special object of worship of some of the ancient Arabs; or the great serpent; and the new moon

Dude, I've been through this with you before. Nobody in the world who studies this stuff agrees with your translations. Everybody who studies religion will tell you that Allah is God. There are a million sources that explain the connections you mention above, and they aren't what you claim them to be.

Your "theory" that Allah is Satan, in order to be true, would mean that billions of Muslims who know how to read and translate Arabic languages are knowingly worshipping Satan. You do realize how stupid that sounds, right? Not to mention that your "translations" aren't found anywhere in the world outside of anti-Islam websites such as answeringislam. Can you find me even just one scholar, professor, or important religious figure who agrees with your translations? Just one?
 

Mickiel

New member
Are you willing to take that chance?

Salvation is not a gamble, its an inherited free gift from God. Christian threats and dares are useless against me, I am free from human intimidation because my eyes have seen the scriptures. In 2 Tim. 1:9, " Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE and GRACE, which was GIVEN to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began!" Salvation was predestined and given because of God's grace. There is no chance in this, its academic; knowing the scriptures can set you free from religious intimidation.
 

Prizebeatz1

New member
Salvation is not a gamble, its an inherited free gift from God. Christian threats and dares are useless against me, I am free from human intimidation because my eyes have seen the scriptures. In 2 Tim. 1:9, " Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE and GRACE, which was GIVEN to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began!" Salvation was predestined and given because of God's grace. There is no chance in this, its academic; knowing the scriptures can set you free from religious intimidation.

+1
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
the good news is God's restoring love.......

the good news is God's restoring love.......

The so called suffering in the Christian hell is said to be forever, they are stealing this eternal language from the bible and misdirecting it. The eternal language of God deals with everlasting Mercy; in Psalms 89:2, " For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever!" The Mercy of God is eternal and that reveals that the Christian hell is a biblical trick , designed to cast humans out and fear in.

:thumb:

links:

Consider what Love's will is

Stop the Insanity

~*~*~

A contemplation of infinite love in its fullness will outshine and obliterate the fear of eternal hellfire and endless punishments. While the law of karma is ever coordinating the consequences of action, still the universal law of love pervades and transcends all conditions guiding all sentient beings towards their purpose of existence and source of being. Love draws all, restores all, fulfills all.
 

Mickiel

New member
This is not about all of mankind but only about HIS elect, HIS sheep, but not about those who are not HIS sheep: John 10:26 “But you do not believe because YOU ARE NOT MY SHEEP. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. also speaks the same message as Lam.3:31-32.

Your interpretation would force us to disagree with John 10:26 since you tell us all humans will be saved proving all are His sheep.



I disagree with the Christian limiting view of salvation, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness there of; this is talking about all the people belonging to God, its not talking about the landscape and animals. In John 17:2 God gave Jesus ALL FLESH, meaning ALL humans are his; the Christian effort to separate believers and unbelievers in salvation, is a selfish effort ; Jesus has sheep in all kinds of different folds.
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Dude, I've been through this with you before. Nobody in the world who studies this stuff agrees with your translations. Everybody who studies religion will tell you that Allah is God. There are a million sources that explain the connections you mention above, and they aren't what you claim them to be.

Your "theory" that Allah is Satan, in order to be true, would mean that billions of Muslims who know how to read and translate Arabic languages are knowingly worshipping Satan. You do realize how stupid that sounds, right? Not to mention that your "translations" aren't found anywhere in the world outside of anti-Islam websites such as answeringislam. Can you find me even just one scholar, professor, or important religious figure who agrees with your translations? Just one?

Hi Greg,

I've also dealt with Apple7 over his translation of the Koran passage concerning Jesus resurrection, a 'translation' that is uniquely his own 'spin', and have rebutted his conclusions. We had a thread just on that, no longer extant. I can sympathize with you ;)
 

Greg Jennings

New member
Hi Greg,

I've also dealt with Apple7 over his translation of the Koran passage concerning Jesus resurrection, a 'translation' that is uniquely his own 'spin', and have rebutted his conclusions. We had a thread just on that, no longer extant. I can sympathize with you ;)

Man I'm glad to see that someone else noticed, and didn't just take Apple7's word as truth
 

ttruscott

Well-known member
Originally Posted by ttruscott
Not the grave, but the outer darkness:

Please consider:
IF we are created as eternal spirits and
IF we self re-create ourselves as eternally evil by our free will and
IF a little leaven leavens the whole lump means that a little sin corrupts the whole of created reality

THEN it is a necessity that GOD, in HIS love for HIS family within the heavenly experience cleanse all of created reality of the people who are eternally evil by banishing them to outside of created reality (since it is not infinite), that place called the outer darkness, so that heaven is swept clean of all sinful taint.


I totally disagree. Heaven has LONG existed before the earth was even created, and it needed no hell, no place for evil. This physical existence is temporary, as is evil and sin; that condition was created when man was, there was no prior need for a place of outer darkness, no prior need to protect heaven from a threat that never existed. And that threat will NOT exist after God throws it into the lake of fire. I don't fall for that protectionist theory as a need for hell.

So how do you interpret the injunction to the people of GOD must sweep all leaven out of their houses before they are covered by the blood and can leave for the promised land IF leaven does not stand for sin?

And IF leaven stands for sin how do you interpret:1 Corinthians 5:6 ...Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

And, since you do not dismiss the logic that if we are eternal and if some have an eternal evil then a banishment of them FOR ANY REASON is also a logical necessity, since eternal evil cannot exist in a heaven perfectly free from sin.
 

Mickiel

New member
One of the meanings of Hosea 1:10, " The number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea", means salvation will envelope all of created humanity. The bible keeps revealing that salvation must be considered in unlimited terms. And is all inclusive!
 

Mickiel

New member
So how do you interpret the injunction to the people of GOD must sweep all leaven out of their houses before they are covered by the blood and can leave for the promised land IF leaven does not stand for sin?

And IF leaven stands for sin how do you interpret:1 Corinthians 5:6 ...Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

And, since you do not dismiss the logic that if we are eternal and if some have an eternal evil then a banishment of them FOR ANY REASON is also a logical necessity, since eternal evil cannot exist in a heaven perfectly free from sin.

The leaven is only a symbolic thing used to give a point in the flesh of men; flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God, which means God will change humans into Spirit beings; there is no leaven in the Kingdom; there is no threat to the Kingdom. The leaven is temporary existence, the Christian hell is the attempt to give leaven eternity.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
One of the meanings of Hosea 1:10, " The number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea", means salvation will envelope all of created humanity. The bible keeps revealing that salvation must be considered in unlimited terms. And is all inclusive!

Quite simply: not true. Scriptures reveal, time and time again that the wicked suffer eternal punishment. Denying that requires pretty severe ignorance.
 

Stuu

New member
God is going to resurrect billions of persons back to life, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15, but if they do not want to obey, and live peacefully with others, then they will go into The Lake of Fire. There is NO punishment or torment of any kind in The Lake of Fire. The person, or anything else thrown into the Lake of Fire will be OUT of existence, forever!!!

The reason for anyone being thrown into the Lake of Fire, will be their refusal to make any progress when living in the Judgement Day. People will only be judged by what they do after being resurrected, because the will have already paid the ultimate price, death for their sins, Romans 6:23, 6:7.
So how do you get to just die then? What if one is perfectly happy with living and dying and that's it? What is the need for this Judgement and possible Fire lake? Is there a box to tick that says: just leave me in the ground?

If not, then are christians really like Tertullian, who describes the joy to be felt in watching the damned burn?

A petty and wasteful belief system, this christianity. Just as well it is all made-up nonsense.

Stuart
 

Mickiel

New member
Quite simply: not true. Scriptures reveal, time and time again that the wicked suffer eternal punishment. Denying that requires pretty severe ignorance.



I totally disagree with that " Time and Time again phrase", eternal punishing rarely appears in scripture, I think less than 10 times, and even those times are not in most translations; even the term " Hell" is rare, and it means the grave; hell does not even appear in most translations;

http://www.thehypertexts.com/How many tines is hell mentioned in the Bible.htm
 

Apple7

New member
Dude, I've been through this with you before. Nobody in the world who studies this stuff agrees with your translations. Everybody who studies religion will tell you that Allah is God. There are a million sources that explain the connections you mention above, and they aren't what you claim them to be.

Your "theory" that Allah is Satan, in order to be true, would mean that billions of Muslims who know how to read and translate Arabic languages are knowingly worshipping Satan. You do realize how stupid that sounds, right? Not to mention that your "translations" aren't found anywhere in the world outside of anti-Islam websites such as answeringislam. Can you find me even just one scholar, professor, or important religious figure who agrees with your translations? Just one?

The last time we discussed Arabic, you went utterly silent, your eyes glazed over, and you ran away for a month.

I even bumped the previous thread for you (numerous times) so that you could make some sort of concerted reply to your same assertions.

Keep ignoring...
 

Apple7

New member
Salvation is not a gamble, its an inherited free gift from God. Christian threats and dares are useless against me, I am free from human intimidation because my eyes have seen the scriptures. In 2 Tim. 1:9, " Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS OWN PURPOSE and GRACE, which was GIVEN to us in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began!" Salvation was predestined and given because of God's grace. There is no chance in this, its academic; knowing the scriptures can set you free from religious intimidation.

What are you ranting about now....?
 

Apple7

New member
Hi Greg,

I've also dealt with Apple7 over his translation of the Koran passage concerning Jesus resurrection, a 'translation' that is uniquely his own 'spin', and have rebutted his conclusions. We had a thread just on that, no longer extant. I can sympathize with you ;)

Your posts are a broken record.

No, you have not corrected me in anything.

Correct me right now, if you can...
 
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