ECT Who is not saved?

[oatmeal]

I find that any passage I have invested time in, taking it apart; examining its every word; use of a semi-colon or what have you; comparing it with other words and passages, tends to result in my having ended up having memorized the passage without ever having set out to.

And I have found this common occurrence in many a MAD I have personally dealt with over the years, who really knows his or her doctrine beyond merely having read or heard "about" it somewhere.

You might try this great approach, Oat.

And there is nothing new under the sun about it...

"Alright, boys and girls, as part of our goal of better understanding Biology from the inside out; today we will be dissecting a frog..."

"Ew!" - that cute freckle faced red head know it all who was ever sticking out her blue tongue at me (the result of those blue freeze pops she was ever sucking on during recess) - God bless er, wherever she ended up in life... :chuckle:

Uh, what are you telling me that is new?

 

[Danoh]

Uh, what are you telling me that is new?

One - that is not what you said is your approach.

Two - I was merely sharing what I and some others have found.

Three - nevertheless, Romans 5:6-8 towards you.

 

[beloved57]

That is your uninformed opinion

Then show me that statement in scripture !

 

[marhig]

If we continue in sin, we lose out on the blessings that could have come to us if we believed God's word.

Of course we shouldn't do that, but we do sin.

Since eternal life is eternal, we do not nor can we lose eternal life.

I Peter 1:23 the seed we were born again by is incorruptible, no sin or lack of believing can corrupt it, let alone cause it to be lost.

Why was I John written?

So our joy could be full as we enjoy fellowship with our fellow saints, with God and with His son,

We can and do mar or break our fellowship (sin) but if we confess our sins the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of all unrighteousness. I John 1:1-9

Yes the seed isn't corruptible because the seed is Christ, but we are. If we turn to the ways of our flesh once we know the truth. There are many verses that show us that we can turn back.

See 2 Peter 2.

Here are the last 3 verses, those Peter is talking about here don't sound saved, and they are those who know the truth and know Christ. And those in Romans 1, whom Paul says know God, don't sound eternally saved either. And there are many more.

2 Peter 2

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Jesus himself says that he will tell workers of iniquity, those who profess to do as he commands and don't, to depart from him. He clearly says, in the same chapter, that those who enter into the kingdom of heaven are those who live by the will of his father

 

[marhig]

Jesus Christ shall return to gather us up, both those who have died in Christ and those who are alive at the time of our gathering unto him

He's doing that now, we are being gathered now, and we are made alive now, we are dead before we know God, but we are brought to life through Christ by the Spirit. We should be dying now to self and be alive in God now.

We should be risen with Christ now.

Oatmeal, can you hear the spiritual and not just the natural. Listen to what the spirit says.

All these things are happening now.

 

[marhig]

One, I meant ALL I said NOT just what your inability in your flesh obviously focused on.

I meant that we are each weak in one thing that another might not be strong in, just as we are each strong in another thing that another might not be strong in.

I'll tell ya something - if that is your version of the Spirit's enablement; ya might want to revisit your understanding.

For it has obviously left you a bit vulnerable not only to reading into a thing as having been an intended slight, but without much by way of the ability to remain unscathed by its supposed slings and arrows.

You really need to reflect on that.

As for the other - "about about Christ Jesus being evidently set forth among the Galatians, crucified among them?"

That is nothing more than a thing like this...

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

And this...

17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

And this...

1 Thessalonians 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:

And this...

1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

And this...

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

Thus, this...

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

And this...

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Verse 5 in Galatians 5 there, being nothing more than this....

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

And so, on...for there is more on this in Scripture, than your notions about what this is referring to...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Evidently you mean well, but so did that one individual in that parable of the talents, in Matt. 25, who was nevertheless simply...dead wrong.

In which case I must say "thanks - but no thanks" to your false positive.

Romans 5:6-8 towards you.

Danoh, here's those verses again

Galatians 3:1

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

They already knew Jesus, that's why they are foolish, because they've seen Christ Jesus lived out in front of them through Paul, he has been crucified with Christ, he's been putting to death the lusts of his flesh and living by the will of God to bring Christ to them. Paul says in another chapter, not me but Christ in me, Paul is living it out and Christ is seen through Paul in front of them.

And they've heard the gospel in the past, and have been converted, but they have been bewitched and have turned away and stopped obeying the truth, and Paul is trying to bring them back. He's evidently set Christ in front of them by preaching the truth and living it out and they've believed and started well, but they are turning back. That's why Paul says that they are foolish, because they have begun in the Spirit, but are now turning back to the flesh again.(verse 3)

They are turning back and crucifying Christ afresh, putting him to death in their hearts, putting him to an open shame as Peter puts it, because they desire the flesh before God and Christ. They have been through the suffering, and Paul is hoping that it isn't in vain, he is trying to bring them back again.

Now you might see me as a false witness, or whatever, but I know this is the truth. And we too can fall into the same state as those Galatians if we don't obey the truth, and don't obey Christ and live by the will God, putting our flesh first and putting this world before God. If we do this, then we are just as foolish as those Galatians.

By the way, as for the man with the one talent, what happened to him when he didn't use what was given to him and he buried it instead? He was called wicked, and It was taken away from him and given to the one with ten and he was cast into outer darkness. Thus as that parable shows us that we can lose our salvation.

 

[meshak]

Now you might see me as a false witness, or whatever,

You can count on it.

Nothing new, under the sun.

 

[oatmeal]

He's doing that now, we are being gathered now, and we are made alive now, we are dead before we know God, but we are brought to life through Christ by the Spirit. We should be dying now to self and be alive in God now.

We should be risen with Christ now.

Oatmeal, can you hear the spiritual and not just the natural. Listen to what the spirit says.

All these things are happening now.

Did you read I Thessalonians 4:13-18?

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Did you read the words "so shall we ever be with the Lord"?


This passage describes how and the event where "so shall we ever be be with the Lord" commences.

He is presently seated at the right hand of God, I trust you are aware of that, that you have read the several passages that make that clear.

He is not here now, he is at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[oatmeal]

Yes the seed isn't corruptible because the seed is Christ, but we are. If we turn to the ways of our flesh once we know the truth. There are many verses that show us that we can turn back.

See 2 Peter 2.

Here are the last 3 verses, those Peter is talking about here don't sound saved, and they are those who know the truth and know Christ. And those in Romans 1, whom Paul says know God, don't sound eternally saved either. And there are many more.

2 Peter 2

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Jesus himself says that he will tell workers of iniquity, those who profess to do as he commands and don't, to depart from him. He clearly says, in the same chapter, that those who enter into the kingdom of heaven are those who live by the will of his father

Beleivers turn away all the time in little ways and in big ways.

The smart believers become disciples and are less likely to be distracted by the pleasures and pressures of this world, they seek the escape from temptations God always provides and take it.

That does not mar or shorten our eternal life.

It would not be eternal if it could be shortened.

There are blessing when we walk, conduct our lives, to be in fellowship as I John expounds on.

But our eternal life is eternal.

Do we want to earn rewards for our faithful service to him is the question

 

[oatmeal]

One - that is not what you said is your approach.

Two - I was merely sharing what I and some others have found.

Three - nevertheless, Romans 5:6-8 towards you.

Well, to me it sounds like hair splitting

Have it your way

 

[Right Divider]

I'm not aware of anywhere Jesus teaching the law, maybe you could point me to a passage.

Matt 8:1-4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:1) When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. (8:2) And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. (8:3) And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. (8:4) And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.​

That is from the LAW in Leviticus.

 

[Right Divider]

Maybe looking to Christ but for 1,500 years it did not include the heart and couldn't. How would that be possible.

Really?

Deut 30:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(30:10) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

​

Josh 22:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(22:5) But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

​

Prov 3:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:1) My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

​

Isa 51:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(51:7) ¶ Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

​

Ps 37:31 (AKJV/PCE)​

(37:31) The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

​

Job 22:22 (AKJV/PCE)​

(22:22) Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.


​

 

[DAN P]

And you guys believe Christians are not going to be judged. You are wrong.

here is what Peter says:

1 Peter 4:17-19 (New International Version)
17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18And,
"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

Hi and our BEMA SEAT is written to the B O C in 1 Cor 3:5-15 and NOT in 1 Peter 4:17-19 !!

dan p

 

[Danoh]

You can count on it.

Nothing new, under the sun.

In one thread you took my posting that Steko and I agree on much as meaning that I am jealous of him. :chuckle:

And you do this kind of two plus two equals seven...all the time.

With the words of other posters BUT ESPECIALLY with the Scripture.

Which makes you appear either not all there to others, or simply dishonest.

I'll go with a bit of both about you, but lean much more heavily on the former of those two.

And now you have some of the opposing know-it-alls concluding you are two people - what I jokingly referred to in one post, as Meshak Other, and Meshak Light. :chuckle:

Well, you are their same kind of know-it-all.

In their same, consistent failure at discerning those things within the things that differ between things - those things that only appear to differ.

The whole thing is amusing - people who are each basically the same in incompetence, ever at odds with one another.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8 towards each of you, myself included.

For...left to each our own "competence" we'd all really be up a creek without a paddle in a boat full of holes during a raging storm - but for the FINISHED work of the Cross.

 

[Danoh]

Really?

Deut 30:10 (AKJV/PCE)​

(30:10) If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, [and] if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

​

Josh 22:5 (AKJV/PCE)​

(22:5) But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

​

Prov 3:1 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:1) My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:

​

Isa 51:7 (AKJV/PCE)​

(51:7) ¶ Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart [is] my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

​

Ps 37:31 (AKJV/PCE)​

(37:31) The law of his God [is] in his heart; none of his steps shall slide.

​

Job 22:22 (AKJV/PCE)​

(22:22) Receive, I pray thee, the law from his mouth, and lay up his words in thine heart.


​

Yep - the heart issue was ever a "spiritual" issue.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[turbosixx]

Matt 8:1-4 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:1) When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. (8:2) And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. (8:3) And Jesus put forth [his] hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. (8:4) And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.​

That is from the LAW in Leviticus.

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, I have a list of them and the worst offenders I put in my signature for all to see

 

[Right Divider]

9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men, I have a list of them and the worst offenders I put in my signature for all to see

Poor baby doesn't like being shown the truth.

 

[meshak]

In one thread you took my posting that Steko and I agree on much as meaning that I am jealous of him. :chuckle:

And you do this kind of two plus two equals seven...all the time.

With the words of other posters BUT ESPECIALLY with the Scripture.

Which makes you appear either not all there to others, or simply dishonest.

I'll go with a bit of both about you, but lean much more heavily on the former of those two.

And now you have some of the opposing know-it-alls concluding you are two people - what I jokingly referred to in one post, as Meshak Other, and Meshak Light. :chuckle:

Well, you are their same kind of know-it-all.

In their same, consistent failure at discerning those things within the things that differ between things - those things that only appear to differ.

The whole thing is amusing - people who are each basically the same in incompetence, ever at odds with one another.

:chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8 towards each of you, myself included.

For...left to each our own "competence" we'd all really be up a creek without a paddle in a boat full of holes during a raging storm - but for the FINISHED work of the Cross.

?????

 

[marhig]

Beleivers turn away all the time in little ways and in big ways.

The smart believers become disciples and are less likely to be distracted by the pleasures and pressures of this world, they seek the escape from temptations God always provides and take it.

That does not mar or shorten our eternal life.

It would not be eternal if it could be shortened.

There are blessing when we walk, conduct our lives, to be in fellowship as I John expounds on.

But our eternal life is eternal.

Do we want to earn rewards for our faithful service to him is the question

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that, there are to many verses in the scriptures to contradict that. That show us that we will be cut off if we don't live by the will of God and we put our flesh first.

 

[marhig]

Did you read I Thessalonians 4:13-18?

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Did you read the words "so shall we ever be with the Lord"?


This passage describes how and the event where "so shall we ever be be with the Lord" commences.

He is presently seated at the right hand of God, I trust you are aware of that, that you have read the several passages that make that clear.

He is not here now, he is at the right hand of the throne of God.

Are those born of God not with the Lord now? Surely once we are born of God and we walk in the Spirit and worship God in Spirit and in truth then we are with the Lord?

And Christ Jesus also said, wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, there I will be in the midst.