ECT Who is not saved?

[marhig]

Spoken like a good, but probably lost Mormon, or a good, but probably lost Buddhist, or a good, but probably lost Bahai, or a successful, but probably lost member of the AA, and so on...

You'd do well to seek out a much more objective litmus test.

Sincerely,

Rom. 5:6-8 towards ya.

I'm not of any religion, or denomination, the way I follow is Christ Jesus.

I don't agree with you, and God will be the judge of both of us.

 

[Danoh]

I'm not of any religion, or denomination, the way I follow is Christ Jesus.

I don't agree with you, and God will be the judge of both of us.

Through whom while on this Earth?

In Time past (Eph. 2:11, 12):

2 Chronicles 19:4 And Jehoshaphat dwelt at Jerusalem: and he went out again through the people from Beersheba to mount Ephraim, and brought them back unto the LORD God of their fathers. 19:5 And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city, 19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment. 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

But Now (Eph. 2:13):

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

In the spirit of Rom. 5: 6-8 towards ya, marhig.

:thumb:

 

[heir]

Your hybrid of those two approaches is the actual :blabla:

And then some.

I read that stuff on Galatians you misled that one newbie in the "MAD" into - boy are you clueless in your "study" approach - what - a - mess.

As if yours and STP's various other Romans thru Philemon errors were not bad enough.

You guys need to contact the BBS or something; you each have really lost your way.

I mean this. I am not merely giving you and your confused pals in these issues a hard time just for the heck of it, or what have you...

Rom. 5: 6-8.

:yawn:

 

[heir]

Paul preached the gospel of Christ,

Yes, which was before a mystery (Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV).

I don't agree with you heir,

I don't care if you agree with me. Agree with what saith the scriptures.

I listen to the words of Jesus.

That which Paul preached are the "words of Jesus": "the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..."

He said my words are Spirit and they are life and my sheep hear my voice.

Yes, He said, "...:the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.". Who was He speaking to? In other words, to whom was He sent in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

And the word that Jesus spoke is the word of God, and his word is for all of us and I hear his voice and I hear him in Paul also.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable...(2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). It means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. It's all written FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not ALL written TO us or about us. It will require you to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

There is only one gospel,

There are many in the Bible.

the gospel of God

There's a gospel (Romans 1:1-4 KJV)

and Jesus and Paul preached that gospel,

Paul was given his gospel by revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV). It was a mystery before then (Romans 16:25-26 KJV) and this is why (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV)

and Jesus lived it our perfectly and brought us a new and living way showing us how to live before God, and he is our perfect example.

The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). That is the gospel of OUR salvation and nothing else will save you except trusting the Lord believing it for salvation and a seal (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). It's not by or maintained by anything we do, don't do or continue to do. It is strictly about what God did in our place (Titus 3:4-7 KJV, Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!

 

[glorydaz]

:yawn:

At least he finds himself entertaining. :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

Yes, which was before a mystery (Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). I don't care if you agree with me. Agree with what saith the scriptures. That which Paul preached are the "words of Jesus": "the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..." Yes, He said, "...:the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.". Who was He speaking to? In other words, to whom was He sent in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable...(2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). It means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. It's all written FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not ALL written TO us or about us. It will require you to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

There are many in the Bible. There's a gospel (Romans 1:1-4 KJV)Paul was given his gospel by revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV). It was a mystery before then (Romans 16:25-26 KJV) and this is why (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV)The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). That is the gospel of OUR salvation and nothing else will save you except trusting the Lord believing it for salvation and a seal (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). It's not by or maintained by anything we do, don't do or continue to do. It is strictly about what God did in our place (Titus 3:4-7 KJV, Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!

:yawn: back at your hybrid of the Acts 9 and Acts 28 positions your assertions in your above post are ever clearly a result of.

:chuckle:

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards ya - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

 

[Danoh]

At least he finds himself entertaining. :chuckle:

The hybrid based errors you have also been swayed into are very amusing indeed.

Humour: tragedy reflected on, over time.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

 

[marhig]

Through whom while on this Earth?

In Time past (Eph. 2:11, 12):

2 Chronicles 19:4 And Jehoshaphat dwelt at Jerusalem: and he went out again through the people from Beersheba to mount Ephraim, and brought them back unto the LORD God of their fathers. 19:5 And he set judges in the land throughout all the fenced cities of Judah, city by city, 19:6 And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment. 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

But Now (Eph. 2:13):

1 Corinthians 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 6:4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 6:5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

In the spirit of Rom. 5: 6-8 towards ya, marhig.

:thumb:

Those who are born of God, judge by the word of God, and God will judge us on what we do when we hear the truth.

 

[marhig]

Yes, which was before a mystery (Romans 16:25-26 KJV, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). I don't care if you agree with me. Agree with what saith the scriptures. That which Paul preached are the "words of Jesus": "the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest,..." Yes, He said, "...:the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.". Who was He speaking to? In other words, to whom was He sent in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable...(2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV). It means what it says, as it says it and to whom it says it. It's all written FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not ALL written TO us or about us. It will require you to 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV.

There are many in the Bible. There's a gospel (Romans 1:1-4 KJV)Paul was given his gospel by revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV). It was a mystery before then (Romans 16:25-26 KJV) and this is why (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV)The Lord Jesus Christ died for our sins, was buried and was raised again for our justification (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV). That is the gospel of OUR salvation and nothing else will save you except trusting the Lord believing it for salvation and a seal (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV). It's not by or maintained by anything we do, don't do or continue to do. It is strictly about what God did in our place (Titus 3:4-7 KJV, Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!

Jesus was speaking to all of us, Paul even said that he was a minister of the gospel that was to be preached to every creature. And that's exactly what Christ Jesus said when he sent his apostles out to spread the word, they weren't to go to only the Jews, but to every creature in every nation just as Paul said he was up preach to. And the mystery is Christ in you. You are reading the scriptures to suit your denomination.

What amazes me about some of you is, you say that the words of Jesus aren't for you, and say that you are to listen to Paul. But when Paul says something that doesn't suit you all, then that's not for you all either. I.e. regarding the branches being cut off (even though he's clearly talking to the gentiles), and Paul himself said that he himself can be cast away if he doesn't keep himself under subjection. Which is pretty clear.

Many are just reading the Bible to suit themselves not God.

 

[meshak]

I'm not of any religion, or denomination, the way I follow is Christ Jesus.

I don't agree with you, and God will be the judge of both of us.

right on!

No one can intimidate any Jesus' followers with their judgements.

 

[freelight]

Salvatiion is a process, sanctification an ongoing journey......

Salvatiion is a process, sanctification an ongoing journey......

The book of Revelation may seem mystical

I, II and III John are quite plain

That book barely made it into the canon due to its esoteric/cryptic nature, and no one really knows which 'John' wrote it, there were different 'Johns', and it still could have been written by someone else (partially or entirely),...we do know its agreed by some scholars that parts of John's writings have been 'redacted'.

I note along with others that aspects of John's writings are 'gnostic' in nature (Paul as well), and some redactions added later were 'inserted' to combat 'docetism', insisting on the physical nature/incarnation of Jesus,...but according to some etherealists....he could have been just as well as a 'phantom' since the spirit-form still servess its purpose, after all, what really matters to Paul is that Jesus is NOW a life-giving spirit. His emphasis was a celestial Jesus anyways (doesnt speak much of Jesus earthly life or teachings at all in his letters), who comes down from heaven, engages a redemption sacrifice, is "crucified" and then is raised by God, so the emphasis is mostly on this personality as a redeeming god-man/savior, who then gives his believers eternal life via drinking his blood and eating his flesh (note the Eucharist Paul speaks about was given to him by 'revelation',...he makes no mention of this tradition being passed onto him from the original apostles at Jerusalem). - it could be very well this 'eucharist', common to some other mystery religions as well was sponsored by Paul, then retro-inserted back into the gospels written later.

If you have done Romans 10:9-10, then you are saved at the moment you did that.

Well,...if all you need to do is confess Jesus and believe in your heart,...this is all 'subjective', and whether a real 'salvation' or 'transformation' of soul occurs,....only God knows eh. Otherwise,...the whole 'ask Jesus into your heart and believe he died for your sins' card, is more or less just a popular evangelical Christian formula for being "SAVED", and its this concept of being 'saved' which is the question at hand here.

Now, some, maybe many who are saved do not yet know it. Unfortunately, they do not know yet if they have that gift of salvation/eternal life/holy spirit.

I John 5:13 makes it plain that it is God's will that we know so that we can live accordingly.

There is a difference between "to save" and "salvation" one is a verb, the other is a noun, both have the same root.

To be made whole, sozo is the Greek word, which is referring to wholeness.

The man of body and soul, what scripture refers to a the natural man, for his only mode of learning is from natural means, ie, the five senses, trial and error, is not yet whole

I Thessalonians tells us that the believer is made up of body and soul and spirit

Yes, wholeness is the goal, or our tending towards 'completion',.....spirit, soul and body. Just as God is whole and holy, we are to be whole and holy,....in his likeness and image, but even more so as we share in His Spirit, of like nature as well. Wholeness is salvation, but even more so, if you are 'whole',...there is no need for salvation, healing or restoration,....it is only in the 'process' or 'progress' of space and time, that the 'integrating' and 'healing' appears to take place. The process is our own spiritual evolution and transformation in God,....integrating eternity into time, and time merging into eternity.

When a person is saved, he received from God of His spirit, I John 4:13, completing him. Colossians 2:10

Now that man can go beyond what the natural man can do

The man of body and soul and spirit now has spiritual abilities at his disposal.

Question. does he know that? if he does, will he use that?

Although the Christian has been saved, is he making use of that salvation? or is he "hoping" for more?

He already has all the spiritual ability he will ever get for now.

There is further wholeness to be received by utilizing the gift.

Much like the human body, it is strengthened by use, by exercising it.

Is the person who exercises more fit than the one who is a recliner russet? a sofa spud? a couch potato?

Even so those who exercise that gift of holy spirit is more fit for the master than those who sit on it.

In a sense, their salvation is increased.

Of course 'salvation' is an ongoing process via 'sanctification'. Its ridiculous to assume one is just 'saved' by confession, apart from a genuine transformation of heart/soul by the Spirit working in one's life, transforming them ....from glory to glory. This just 'name and claim it' salvation held by some, taking Paul's grace gospel to an extreme is without substance or validity, since no matter how much 'faith' you add to your bowl,....its still a FACT that 'faith without works' is dead. Faith will of course PRODUCE works proving repentance and inner change/transformation. Otherwise, most all is just theoritical or conceptual anyways,....you can spin it anyway you like.

 

[oatmeal]

That book barely made it into the canon due to its esoteric/cryptic nature, and no one really knows which 'John' wrote it, there were different 'Johns', and it still could have been written by someone else (partially or entirely),...we do know its agreed by some scholars that parts of John's writings have been 'redacted'.

I note along with others that aspects of John's writings are 'gnostic' in nature (Paul as well), and some redactions added later were 'inserted' to combat 'docetism', insisting on the physical nature/incarnation of Jesus,...but according to some etherealists....he could have been just as well as a 'phantom' since the spirit-form still servess its purpose, after all, what really matters to Paul is that Jesus is NOW a life-giving spirit. His emphasis was a celestial Jesus anyways (doesnt speak much of Jesus earthly life or teachings at all in his letters), who comes down from heaven, engages a redemption sacrifice, is "crucified" and then is raised by God, so the emphasis is mostly on this personality as a redeeming god-man/savior, who then gives his believers eternal life via drinking his blood and eating his flesh (note the Eucharist Paul speaks about was given to him by 'revelation',...he makes no mention of this tradition being passed onto him from the original apostles at Jerusalem). - it could be very well this 'eucharist', common to some other mystery religions as well was sponsored by Paul, then retro-inserted back into the gospels written later.


Well,...if all you need to do is confess Jesus and believe in your heart,...this is all 'subjective', and whether a real 'salvation' or 'transformation' of soul occurs,....only God knows eh. Otherwise,...the whole 'ask Jesus into your heart and believe he died for your sins' card, is more or less just a popular evangelical Christian formula for being "SAVED", and its this concept of being 'saved' which is the question at hand here.



Yes, wholeness is the goal, or our tending towards 'completion',.....spirit, soul and body. Just as God is whole and holy, we are to be whole and holy,....in his likeness and image, but even more so as we share in His Spirit, of like nature as well. Wholeness is salvation, but even more so, if you are 'whole',...there is no need for salvation, healing or restoration,....it is only in the 'process' or 'progress' of space and time, that the 'integrating' and 'healing' appears to take place. The process is our own spiritual evolution and transformation in God,....integrating eternity into time, and time merging into eternity.



Of course 'salvation' is an ongoing process via 'sanctification'. Its ridiculous to assume one is just 'saved' by confession, apart from a genuine transformation of heart/soul by the Spirit working in one's life, transforming them ....from glory to glory. This just 'name and claim it' salvation held by some, taking Paul's grace gospel to an extreme is without substance or validity, since no matter how much 'faith' you add to your bowl,....its still a FACT that 'faith without works' is dead. Faith will of course PRODUCE works proving repentance and inner change/transformation. Otherwise, most all is just theoritical or conceptual anyways,....you can spin it anyway you like.

Actually, no on is saved simply by confession. Romans 10:9-10 has two requirements not just one.

In a real sense, salvation begins by becoming saved, but there is an ongoing process afterwards that makes that initial spiritual salvation bear real fruit in a person's life.

My dad would talk of soldiers and others who in a tough situation, would pray to God that if God saved them, they would never do this or they would do that. Did they follow through? I don't know, well if they died, obviously they did not.

All alive people born of man and woman need to be saved to acquire the gift of eternal life.

However, just like receiving any gift, it is a good idea to unwrap it, see what it is and put it to use.

 

[oatmeal]

Sorry but I don't agree with that, those truly born of God will have the Holy Spirit within, and if they have the Spirit, then he will be helping them to overcome their flesh and their sins. We can't say that we are born of God, have the Holy Spirit, and then ignore it, go against God and live how we please, this is not how we show that we love God, and it's putting out flesh before him, God won't be mocked. God won't let his son see corruption, and he won't let his Spirit stay in a vessel that chooses to stay unwashed and dirty. If we truly have the Spirit then we should be being cleansed from the inside out by the washing of the water of the word. We are to be doers of the word and not hearers only. Too many try to lick themselves clean and say they are ok, but the real cleansing begins within, where the heart is circumcised, and it is then shown outwardly in their lives .

How can we bring Christ to others if we love our flesh first? Others will see our flesh not the life of Christ, and if we don't live by the will of God, then there will be no fruit of the Spirit because God won't be able to use us if we are loving our life before him.

Jesus said, if anyone will come after him, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow him. that those who shall save their lives will lose it and those who are willing to lose their lives for his sake and the gospels, shall save it. And trying to save our lives is to live by our will and not by the will of God putting ourselves and our lives first. We should be willing to lay down our lives for Christ's sake and for the sake of others and live by the will of God and bring Christ to them.

As the apostle Paul says, not me but Christ in me, Paul was living by the will of God to bring the word of God and the life and love of Christ to others with the hope that they will listen and believe and turn to Christ Jesus for salvation.

Sorry, but simply being born of a woman does not guarantee that that person will mature into a responsible adult

Nor does simply being saved guarantee that that person will grow up into a responsible Christ.

Yes, the gift of spirit will help, but that requires that we willfully use it.

 

[oatmeal]

Yes, walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, that's my point, many who say that they are saved are fulfilling the lusts of their flesh so how does that work?

Walking in or by the spirit is a decision that every believer must make, sometimes daily, sometimes moment by moment

It will "rock your world" as they say

 

[heir]

:yawn: back at your hybrid of the Acts 9 and Acts 28 positions your assertions in your above post are ever clearly a result of.

:chuckle:

Nevertheless, Rom. 14:5 towards ya - in memory of Rom. 5: 6-8 - in each our stead.

You're taking issue with a post about all of the Bible being for us, but not to us and that there is more than one gospel in the Bible? Surely, you have fallen off your rocker.

 

[heir]

Jesus was speaking to all of us,

Matthew 15:24 KJV, Romans 15:8 KJV. That's NOT us (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). God sent us an apostle (Romans 11:13 KJV, Acts 22:17-21 KJV, Ephesians 3:1-9 KJV).

Paul even said that he was a minister of the gospel that was to be preached to every creature.

The gospel Paul was given by revelation of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) is NOT the same gospel that was preached (or will be preached)to every creature resulting in the end coming (Matthew 24:14 KJV)! That Paul was made a minister of a gospel that was preached to every creature by the close of his ministry shows you that it could not be the same as the gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

And that's exactly what Christ Jesus said when he sent his apostles out to spread the word, they weren't to go to only the Jews, but to every creature in every nation just as Paul said he was up preach to.

Matthew 10:23 KJV and not "just as Paul..."

And the mystery is Christ in you.

The mystery of Christ in you was not possible for Gentiles having no hope in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (Ephesians 2:11-12 KJV). It was not known by the 12 or given to the 12 but to Paul Colossians 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

Colossians 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

You are reading the scriptures to suit your denomination.

I'm not in any denomination, but the one Body (Ephesians 4:4 KJV) and that by the gospel (Ephesians 3:6 KJV)/the mystery thereof (Ephesians 6:19 KJV).

What amazes me about some of you is, you say that the words of Jesus aren't for you, and say that you are to listen to Paul.

I've never said that. All of the Bible is for us. It's just not all to us or about us. And you CANNOT know Christ after the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV).

But when Paul says something that doesn't suit you all, then that's not for you all either. I.e. regarding the branches being cut off (even though he's clearly talking to the gentiles),

This is you taking something that Paul wrote to Gentiles who were ALREADY graffed in to the olive tree before hearingbeing established into the one Body by Paul's gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began, but now (then) was manifest...(Romans 16:25-26 KJV)

and Paul himself said that he himself can be cast away if he doesn't keep himself under subjection. Which is pretty clear.

Not tossed out of the Body which is impossible for anyone who has committed their salvation to the Lord (Romans 8:38-39 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV, Ephesians 4:30 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:12 KJV).

Many are just reading the Bible to suit themselves not God.

Those who are saved should 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV. Why don't you trust the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV as the only means by which you can be saved and get started 2 Timothy 2:!5 KJV?!

 

[heir]

The hybrid based errors you have also been swayed into are very amusing indeed.

Humour: tragedy reflected on, over time.

Rom. 14:5; 5:6-8.

Open up a thread and dissect all of our errors, why don't you big mouth?

 

[Danoh]

Open up a thread and dissect all of our errors, why don't you big mouth?

Shawn did just that - with some 25 of your other errors.

When I posted a link to do his more than well laid out list, you yelled and screamed and pitched your girly fit. But that was it. :chuckle:

You addressed none of those.

Just as whenever you and I or any of your pals have gone back and forth on any of these issues, we have gotten nowhere - because your study APPROACH is off.

And because it is, well, that and your insolence, there's not getting through to you.

And yes, I find it all...amusing. :chuckle:

Rom. 14:5; 5: 6-8.

 

[heir]

Shawn did just that - with some 25 of your other errors.

:chuckle: The man doesn't even believe the sin/sins debt was settled 2000 years ago when 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV took place for the world. He can't be taken seriously anymore than you can.

When I posted a link to do his more than well laid out list, you yelled and screamed and pitched your girly fit. But that was it. :chuckle:

I did none of the above, slanderous reporter.

Just as whenever you and I or any of your pals have gone back and forth on any of these issues, we have gotten nowhere - because your study APPROACH is off.

:chuckle: You keep saying that, but never show us all of the errors of our study ways.

And because it is, well, that and your insolence, there's not getting through to you.

And yes, I find it all...amusing. :chuckle:

Rom. 14:5; 5: 6-8.

:yawn: Your act is old and tired.

 

[Danoh]

:chuckle: The man doesn't even believe the sin/sins debt was settled 2000 years ago when 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV took place for the world. He can't be taken seriously anymore than you can.

I did none of the above, slanderous reporter.

:chuckle: You keep saying that, but never show us all of the errors of our study ways.

:yawn: Your act is old and tired.

In other words, you copped out again. :chuckle:

Rom. 5: 6-8.