Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[beloved57]

eve·ry·where –adverb

in every place or part; in all places.

Shall I also define the word "all" for you?

God can be anywhere He chooses. Do you think He is limited by material objects? If we build something big enough, can He not be present?

God made everywhere , God made cat poop , you are nothing to God sir less than nothing, you present no challenge to Him nor me.. Are you on medications sir because you have not proven anything but your nothingness be fore God..

isa 40 17

All nations before him are as nothing; and they are counted to him less than nothing, and vanity

if all nations are that in His sight let alone a tiny blasphemer like you lol..

 

[Mystery]

God made cat poop

No, cats make cat poop. God made cats.

you have not proven anything but your nothingness be fore God

Look, I know you are retarded, so I'll try and type slower...

YOU claim that God is present EVERYWHERE. I should you what EVERYWHERE means. YOU have now chosen to throw a hissy fit, and boast about things you do not have the intellectual capacity to speak of.

God is EVERYWHERE He chooses to be, and is not where He chooses not to be.

Even you admitted that God is not IN certain things, yet it must be by His choice, or you are limiting God from being EVERYWHERE, which destroys your omnipresent argument.

Now go find one of your caretakers to explain to you how you have just been completely humbled by the truth.

 

[Ecumenicist]

There is no scriptural evidence for or against God dwelling in toilets or
cat poop. There is Scriptural evidence that God is with Humanity in all
places, even Hell.

The circular argument taking place here (as many are,) seems to be whether
God has freedom or God is All in All - i.e. all powerful, all present, all knowing.

I think the fact that Creation exists - and especially that life exists - is evidence of
God's Freedom, as well as God's Infinite power, presence, and knowledge.
And lets not forget God's Infinite Love as well, that always seems to be missing
from these conversations for some reason.

It occurs to me that true freedom would come from being all these things, all
present, all powerful, all knowing. Without these dimensions, God's freedom
would be limited, even as humanity's freedom is constrained by time, presence,
and knowledge.

It also occurs to me that while God is all present, God also has the freedom to
choose when and how God manifests God's self - or reveals God's self - to
humanity, whether in a burning bush, a pillar of fire, or in the flesh, in Christ.

From this perspective, God did not die on the Cross, but God's Fleshly manifestation,
which God freely chose to manifest as an act of Love, died on the cross,
in demonstration of God's Loving Solidarity with humanity and the human
condition.

I hope everyone has a great day - and gets out to vote.

Dave

 

[Quasar1011]

Are you on medications sir because you have not proven anything but your nothingness be fore God..

Even the most vile sinner, is not "nothing before God".

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Back on topic: Jesus is the 2nd member of the Godhead. The number 2 stands for duality. Jesus is the only being with both a Divine nature, and a human nature. So when He died on the cross, His body of flesh died. That in no way limited Him in His Spirit. So where was He?

1st Peter 3:18-20
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

 

[uk_mikey]

Originally Posted by uk_mikey View Post
The Orthodox Church's teaching on this is simple.


We know where the Spirit is...


But... We don't know where He isn't.

Yes we do.

We know that God isn't any place that He doesn't want to be. God isn't forced to be in hell for all eternity.

Once again.... the Orthodox Church is clueless.

:think:

And yet you just agreed with what I said. Your eagerness to take a swipe at the Orthodox Church doesn't fit what you said. You agreed with it.

If God chooses not to be somewhere, then that's something He doesn't call us about to inform us. That's His business.
He may choose not to be "in hell 24/7", but We don't actually know where He chooses not to be.

 

[PKevman]

The Scriptures do give us particular locations at particular times at least, that God was clearly NOT present. Such as we know that for some period of time, He was not present NOR looking at Sodom due to the great evil and wickedness in that city.

I believe it was because He had utterly turned His back on them, and given them up to their own desires. But be that what it may, here is what happened:

Then He began hearing reports that it gotten REALLY wicked, so He decided to go and wipe Sodom out IF those things were true.

Before doing this, He went and talked to His friend Abraham, and Abraham begged God to have mercy on Sodom. Repeatedly, Abraham prevailed upon God that IF a certain amount of righteous people were in the city, then God should not destroy it, and God actually agreed EACH TIME with Abraham!


If Omnipresence and Omniscience were true, there is no way that THIS entire conversation between Abraham and God could have EVER taken place:


16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
30 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

IF....IF......IF...... "I will go down NOW".........

Once again, the Open View of God is confirmed by what He Himself says!

 

[Ecumenicist]

In addition to Psalm 139:

Jer 23

23 "Am I only a God nearby,"
declares the LORD,
"and not a God far away?

24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

How stupid are you? For God to be present everywhere, He would have to be IN everything.

It's wacky ain't it? These knuckleheads are committed to stupid ideas but distance themselves from the consequences of those stupid ideas.

 

[PKevman]

In addition to Psalm 139:

Jer 23

23 "Am I only a God nearby,"
declares the LORD,
"and not a God far away?

24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

And yet NOWHERE in this verse does it say: "I am FORCED to be where I don't want to be"!

 

[PKevman]

I think we both easily agree that God can not be forced to do anything. God
chooses to do what God Wills.

Therefore, given that one cannot escape God's Presence even in Hell, as
Scripture states, its by God's choice, not something God is forced into.

Given that God is Love, this makes perfect sense, that God would choose to be
present even among those who would turn their back on God and not recognize
God's presence.

Dave: But then again you openly deny what the Bible has to say on the subject of Hell, so it's easy for you to say this.

 

[uk_mikey]

The Scriptures do give us particular locations at particular times at least, that God was clearly NOT present. Such as we know that for some period of time, He was not present NOR looking at Sodom due to the great evil and wickedness in that city.

I believe it was because He had utterly turned His back on them, and given them up to their own desires. But be that what it may, here is what happened:

Then He began hearing reports that it gotten REALLY wicked, so He decided to go and wipe Sodom out IF those things were true.

Before doing this, He went and talked to His friend Abraham, and Abraham begged God to have mercy on Sodom. Repeatedly, Abraham prevailed upon God that IF a certain amount of righteous people were in the city, then God should not destroy it, and God actually agreed EACH TIME with Abraham!


If Omnipresence and Omniscience were true, there is no way that THIS entire conversation between Abraham and God could have EVER taken place:


16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. 23 And Abraham came near and said, “Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
26 So the LORD said, “If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.”
27 Then Abraham answered and said, “Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?”
So He said, “If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it.”
29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, “Suppose there should be forty found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it for the sake of forty.”
30 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not do it if I find thirty there.”
31 And he said, “Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?”
So He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty.”
32 Then he said, “Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?”
And He said, “I will not destroy it for the sake of ten.” 33 So the LORD went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.

IF....IF......IF...... "I will go down NOW".........

Once again, the Open View of God is confirmed by what He Himself says!

I totally understand what you are saying here, Pastor Kevin. It just raises the question for me as to how literally we are to read this conversation. It sounds as if Abraham and God were having a chat over a cup of tea, and that God was only with Abraham and no place else. That's the impression it gives. Like a couple of mates in one place together.


When God is portrayed in the Old Testament as a conversationalist, I do wonder in what way we are expected to read and understand it. It seemed to be a time in history when God was in the habit of having these conversations with people. If someone says today that they had such a conversation with God, there would be many raised eyebrows. It no longer seems to happen. Or if it does, such people are mocked as mad or deluded.


I'm not questioning your understanding or interpretation of this, but just asking myself how well these conversation situations give an accurate image of God.
Do you know what I mean?

 

[uk_mikey]

There is no scriptural evidence for or against God dwelling in toilets or
cat poop. ...

Dave

This debate about God in cat poop raises the question (for me, if for nobody else), if God doesn't exist in cat poop, would covering myself in cat poop mean that God wouldn't be able to find me?



Or maybe He'd just ignore me?




Sorry... just the way my head works.

:noid:

 

[PKevman]

I totally understand what you are saying here, Pastor Kevin. It just raises the question for me as to how literally we are to read this conversation. It sounds as if Abraham and God were having a chat over a cup of tea, and that God was only with Abraham and no place else. That's the impression it gives. Like a couple of mates in one place together.


When God is portrayed in the Old Testament as a conversationalist, I do wonder in what way we are expected to read and understand it. It seemed to be a time in history when God was in the habit of having these conversations with people. If someone says today that they had such a conversation with God, there would be many raised eyebrows. It no longer seems to happen. Or if it does, such people are mocked as mad or deluded.


I'm not questioning your understanding or interpretation of this, but just asking myself how well these conversation situations give an accurate image of God.
Do you know what I mean?

I understand what you mean. It is difficult to remove the preconceived notions that our theology has filled our heads with.

It becomes MUCH easier if one accepts the entire weight of the Scriptures which show that God is:

Living
Personal
Relational
Good
Loving

And that THOSE are the eternal attributes of God that are immutable! God will ALWAYS be good and loving!

Now think of the above conversation I listed in light of the fact that God is personal and relational and good and loving. It makes perfect sense for that type of God to have a conversation of that nature with Abraham, who is God's friend!

 

[uk_mikey]

I understand what you mean. It is difficult to remove the preconceived notions that our theology has filled our heads with.

It becomes MUCH easier if one accepts the entire weight of the Scriptures which show that God is:

Living
Personal
Relational
Good
Loving

And that THOSE are the eternal attributes of God that are immutable! God will ALWAYS be good and loving!

Now think of the above conversation I listed in light of the fact that God is personal and relational and good and loving. It makes perfect sense for that type of God to have a conversation of that nature with Abraham, who is God's friend!

Indeed. I accept all that.
But was the conversation in Abraham's head?... In a dream?... Sat in his office? (he'd probably have one if he were around today).

I know this is off topic, but if we are using it as proof that God decides to not be somewhere, it's kind of relevant.
I'm sure we have no answer to that.

 

[beloved57]

mys

YOU claim that God is present EVERYWHERE.

The bible says it airhead..

ps 139:

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

I will David to ask mystery and you can tell him cat poop you imbecile..

YOU have now chosen to throw a hissy fit, and boast about things you do not have the intellectual capacity to speak of.

Nope cat poop is In His precensce now cat poop in india in chicago in switzerland in irealand in virginia in mexico in rome all of the cat poop in the world is in his prescence..lol

You have not proved nothing at all..but how retared you are..

God is EVERYWHERE He chooses to be, and is not where He chooses not to be.

God is everwhere..

Even you admitted that God is not IN certain things, yet it must be by His choice, or you are limiting God from being EVERYWHERE, which destroys your omnipresent argument.

God is everywhere , I am speaking about His omni presecnce..To say that God is in everthing is retared..God can be everywhere without being in everthing , because nothing can contain God..:bannana:

To say that God is in something is absurd thats like saying fit a elephant in a eye of of a needle dodo..

Even you admitted that God is not IN certain things, yet it must be by His choice, or you are limiting God from being EVERYWHERE, which destroys your omnipresent argument.

Now go find one of your caretakers to explain to you how you have just been completely humbled by the truth

You have not proven God is not everywhere lol..

Your silly argument is that God is not in everything of course not How can anything contain God but that anything is in His precences thats my point..

 

[freelight]

The Scriptures do give us particular locations at particular times at least, that God was clearly NOT present. Such as we know that for some period of time, He was not present NOR looking at Sodom due to the great evil and wickedness in that city.

I believe it was because He had utterly turned His back on them, and given them up to their own desires. But be that what it may, here is what happened:

Then He began hearing reports that it gotten REALLY wicked, so He decided to go and wipe Sodom out IF those things were true.

Before doing this, He went and talked to His friend Abraham, and Abraham begged God to have mercy on Sodom. Repeatedly, Abraham prevailed upon God that IF a certain amount of righteous people were in the city, then God should not destroy it, and God actually agreed EACH TIME with Abraham!


If Omnipresence and Omniscience were true, there is no way that THIS entire conversation between Abraham and God could have EVER taken place:


16 Then the men rose from there and looked toward Sodom, and Abraham went with them to send them on the way. 17 And the LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing, 18 since Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him? 19 For I have known him, in order that he may command his children and his household after him, that they keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice, that the LORD may bring to Abraham what He has spoken to him.” 20 And the LORD said, “Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know.”
[/B]

First we must consider the above conversation a story-representation of God speaking with Abraham from an anthropomorphic point of view, as if God was like a Man, limited in space/time and not omniscient. However we who hold to Gods Omniscience acknowledge that nothing can be withheld from the Infinite Intelligence and Cosmic MIND of Deity for he fills all in all. The suggestion that 'God' did not know about how evil Sodom really was denies Gods innate and all-encompassing Knowledge of all that exists, basically denying Gods Intelligence. For one to use this 'story-illustration' to prove that God is not all-knowing is rather feeble, and the truth reveals the story to be merely an anthropomorphic story sequence created by the writer of the text for the sake of his readers.

Again,...limiting or confining God to an anthropomorphic form or image, somehow limited by space or knowledge is denying God his fundamental and universal OMNISCIENCE. Nothing escapes or evades the knowledge of the all-pervading MIND of God, for His Consciousness is unbounded and fills the Immensity of All That exists. By virtue of anything existing, it MUST be within the conscious knowledge of the Infinite ONE, for nothing can exist or subsist apart from God. For someone to really believe that God did not know what was going on in a city on one of the planets he created in His vast Universe is really mind boggling.

In this case, the placing above of a 'story-illustration' and ones own doctrinal position (OV) has denied and squelched the truth of God's Omniscience/Omnipresence in one convenient yet weak attempt.
Now,...that being said,..there are aspects within the OV that I like to explore and even agree with in certain contexts,..but for now I'm sticking with the Omnipresence of God(the metaphysics of it), exploring its extensions and how such relates to Omniscience. Remember God is not limited to some anthropomorphic form as in "I will go down now and see" - such is silly. - All life, being, energy, spirit, space, matter exists in the Omnipresence of God. - and Gods infinite Awareness cannot be divorced from His Presence. God encompasses the Whole of His creation, - he knows all that exists to be known.


paul

 

[Mystery]

mys



The bible says it airhead..

ps 139:

7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

I will David to ask mystery and you can tell him cat poop you imbecile..



Nope cat poop is In His precensce now cat poop in india in chicago in switzerland in irealand in virginia in mexico in rome all of the cat poop in the world is in his prescence..lol

You have not proved nothing at all..but how retared you are..



God is everwhere..



God is everywhere , I am speaking about His omni presecnce..To say that God is in everthing is retared..God can be everywhere without being in everthing , because nothing can contain God..:bannana:

To say that God is in something is absurd thats like saying fit a elephant in a eye of of a needle dodo..

Even you admitted that God is not IN certain things, yet it must be by His choice, or you are limiting God from being EVERYWHERE, which destroys your omnipresent argument.



You have not proven God is not everywhere lol..

Your silly argument is that God is not in everything of course not How can anything contain God but that anything is in His precences thats my point..

Jesus... I humbly ask that you would add 15 seconds to the end of my life for having wasted it reading that stupidity.

Amen.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus... I humbly ask that you would add 15 seconds to the end of my life for having wasted it reading that stupidity.

Your prayers are a abomination to God dude..

 

[Mystery]

Your prayers are a abomination to God dude..

You are a godless, piece of cat poop, in which God does not dwell. An unholy, homo lover of Satan.

Take a hike, you pervert.

 

[freelight]

And yet NOWHERE in this verse does it say: "I am FORCED to be where I don't want to be"!

Omnipresence does not imply that God is forced to be anywhere, but that God is already by His Ubiquitous nature, Everywhere.



paul