Rob, you don't pray.
Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.
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Um, gee, if he chooses to not know where you are, but he's smart enough to know where
to look, doesn't he really know where you are?
freelight
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exploring dimensions
exploring dimensions
But from your perspective this assumes that there is a locality somewhere in space that exists apart from God's Presence(Awareness). We also have to consider the Nature of God. God is Spirit. God is also Infinite Intelligence, LIGHT. All that exists is within the knowledge of God's Consciousness.
We may 'presume' that God can choose to somehow remove his Presence(Awareness) from a certain sphere of existence or space, but that is a presumption. We may presume that God chooses to only know what he wants to know,..but that is a presumption. Nevertheless,....God still includes and has access to all space and time..within His Consciousness so that In the Consciousness of God is All that is and ever will be. I prefer to hold to the preeminence of Omnipresence even though God is certainly free to do as His divine Love and Wisdoms wills. Again, God is not forced to do anything, but only acts as His divine Nature and Love allows, for Love and Wisdom acts out from its own inherent nature and laws.
Those who love, worship, honor and serve God (Life, Love, Truth, Spirit) will naturally thru the laws of consciousness have more of God's Presence in their lives, while those who do not,...will seem like they have less of God's Presence in their lives. God however, by His Infinite Existence being the sustaining Power and Presence behind the whole of The Universe is still in this sense Omnipresent and all that has any existence whatsoever does so within space that is accessible to God, since He encompasses all. Remember, God is Spirit. God is also MIND...the Consciousness that pervades Life which includes within its Field of Awareness...all that exists to be known.
While we have our 'positions' and 'perspectives' on the subject,..there are always new dimensions to explore and new insights to be had here. So we have to look at all angles concerning God's Nature, and our presumptions of where God can be and what God can or cant know. Realize also that we are speculating about this from our limited finite vantage-point and therefore we 'assume' and postulate 'qualifications' about God thru such filters. So lets keep an open mind towards the INFINITE.
paul
exploring dimensions
But from your perspective this assumes that there is a locality somewhere in space that exists apart from God's Presence(Awareness). We also have to consider the Nature of God. God is Spirit. God is also Infinite Intelligence, LIGHT. All that exists is within the knowledge of God's Consciousness.
We may 'presume' that God can choose to somehow remove his Presence(Awareness) from a certain sphere of existence or space, but that is a presumption. We may presume that God chooses to only know what he wants to know,..but that is a presumption. Nevertheless,....God still includes and has access to all space and time..within His Consciousness so that In the Consciousness of God is All that is and ever will be. I prefer to hold to the preeminence of Omnipresence even though God is certainly free to do as His divine Love and Wisdoms wills. Again, God is not forced to do anything, but only acts as His divine Nature and Love allows, for Love and Wisdom acts out from its own inherent nature and laws.
Those who love, worship, honor and serve God (Life, Love, Truth, Spirit) will naturally thru the laws of consciousness have more of God's Presence in their lives, while those who do not,...will seem like they have less of God's Presence in their lives. God however, by His Infinite Existence being the sustaining Power and Presence behind the whole of The Universe is still in this sense Omnipresent and all that has any existence whatsoever does so within space that is accessible to God, since He encompasses all. Remember, God is Spirit. God is also MIND...the Consciousness that pervades Life which includes within its Field of Awareness...all that exists to be known.
While we have our 'positions' and 'perspectives' on the subject,..there are always new dimensions to explore and new insights to be had here. So we have to look at all angles concerning God's Nature, and our presumptions of where God can be and what God can or cant know. Realize also that we are speculating about this from our limited finite vantage-point and therefore we 'assume' and postulate 'qualifications' about God thru such filters. So lets keep an open mind towards the INFINITE.
paul
I know where my daughter is right now..... but I am not there with her.
Does this kind of stuff actually need to be discussed? How stupid are you people?
How can He chose to not know something that Satan and men can readily know?
The only voluntary limitation on omniscience relates to future free will contingencies, not to past or present knowledge. Apart from Enyart and TOL and one other obscure (?liberal) author, I do not know of any Open Theists that add that twist to their own OT twist.
God knows everything= tradition
God knows all that is knowable= OT
God knows what He wants to know when He wants to know it= ?! (TOL)
God cannot cease to be eternal, triune, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent. These are absolutes of wonder that are unique to God (we must define each correctly vs tradition). These are ontological issues of being, not moral issues of choice or character. Can God cease to be personal (will, intellect, emotions)? Can He cease to exist?
We are like God in some ways (Imago Dei), but unlike God in other ways.
OT is a more biblical, coherent view, but don't go too far or you will end up with Process Thought or finite godism (as our critics wrongly accuse us of).
The TOL version of OT is NOT identical to the mainstream Open Theism and prominent, scholastic Open Theists (Hasker, Basinger, Sanders, Boyd, Pinnock, Pratney, Olson, etc.) that I have studied for 30 years. This is the first time in the literature I have run across this twist and know of one other non-TOL writer who hinted along your lines (secular publisher..forget his name, but I mentioned it in a post somewhere).
I am sounding like a classic OT, but not like a minority view TOL OT (I also reject MAD, as do every OT I know outside of 'The Plot' people).
'Forget it'. Can you forget it?
The Hebrew concept is not amnesia, but chosing to not bring it up again, the same principles when we forgive each other. He treats us as if we never sinned. He does not forget things we can easily recall and thus remind him again.
Forgiveness is an extension of mercy instead of justice. It is NOT divine amnesia that would compromise true omniscience (making us more knowing than God in that object of knowledge).
It appears you are trying to jump on the OT band wagon without critically thinking things through. The TOL twist is not accepted by most Open Theists. It is a minority view influenced by Enyart.
Hebraisms are not always wooden literalisms.
Reminds me of the witch hunt at work. We have had more people fired in the last year over trivial things than in my 15 year career here.
It is not spring. I plead amnesty until Mar. 20. I want my lawyer and my mommy.
You are limited to one location, like Satan. God's awareness is more intimate and infinite. We move, live, have our being in Him. He is transcendent and immanent. He is not afar off. His awareness fills the universe as His 'eyes' rove to and fro'. He is not the Mormon god of flesh and bones or the JW god who relies on an active force or angels to bring Him information. He is ontologically distinct from creation (hence, omnipresence is not pantheism), but He is not away from it.
This is a difficult concept for finite man, so there is room for speculation.
RobE
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I didn't say 'prey' as in trying to degrade someone without substance. I mean 'pray' as in speaking to God. Is God omni-listening or omni-watching without being omnipresent in your opinion?
I think it's a just question.
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Someone once said I know where this is going. Yes, God is a spiritual being, and is even present in Hell (see upcoming post below for discussion of this), PK. That is what omnipresence means—everywhere present. God is not spatially located, for He fills all of His creation with His presence. He is in all (Ephesians 4:6) and God is present to all persons at all times (Psalm 139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24; Acts 17:24-28).
Indeed ‘our God is greater than all gods’ (2 Chronicles 2:5)
- self-existence (Exodus 3:14; John 5:26; Jeremiah 2:13; Psalms 36:9)
- eternity (Psalms 90:2; Isaiah 57:15; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Timothy 1:17)
- immensity (1 Kings 8:27; Romans 8:38, 39)
- omnipresence (Psalms 139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24)
- omniscience (John 21:17; I John 3:20; Hebrews 4:13; 2 Chronicles 16:9; Isaiah 44:7-8; Isaiah 44:25-28; Isaiah 46:9-11)
- omnipotence (Mark 14:36; Luke 1:37; Matthew 19:26; Genesis 17:1; Jeremiah 32:17; Isaiah 40:28; Ephesians 1:11; Revelations 19:6)
- incomprehensibility (Psalms 36:5-6; Romans 11:33, cf. 34-35; Job 11:7)
- absoluteness (1 Timothy 6:15; Romans 1:25)
- infinity (Ephesians 1:23; Jeremiah 23:23-24; Psalms 139:7-12; Psalms 147:5; Job 11:7-9)
- transcendence and immanence (Isaiah 57:15; Psalms 139:7-10; John 8:23)
- time and space, time-space (Psalms 90:1-2; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Romans 8:39; 1 Kings 8:27)
We should not attempt to craft God with our own reasoning, but bow in awe to His revealed majesty and greatness.
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You misunderstand pantheism. As the previous cited link discussing omnipresence clearly states:
“God is present in all places; however, our conception of Him must not be of Him filling space, as water fills a jug, for He has no physical or material dimensions. It is as spirit that He is everywhere, in heaven, earth and hell. Although it surpasses the understanding of creatures such as we are, who are limited and bound to material bodies, God Himself is present everywhere in His majesty and power… He is essentially present in all places…
No place is without God; but God's omnipresence is not necessary but free. In saying this we reject the pantheistic idea that God is bound to the universe as the universe is bound to God, as Spinoza and others erroneously taught. God is immanent in the universe and therefore in every place, not by compulsion, but by the free act of his own will, and this immanence is qualified by his transcendence.”
No place is without God; but God's omnipresence is not necessary but free. In saying this we reject the pantheistic idea that God is bound to the universe as the universe is bound to God, as Spinoza and others erroneously taught. God is immanent in the universe and therefore in every place, not by compulsion, but by the free act of his own will, and this immanence is qualified by his transcendence.”
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God is not “trapped” anywhere. Anyone who thinks God is not present in Hell misunderstands His omnipresence and transcendence.
In hell God's blessedness is removed and His wrath is ushered in.
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence {enopion} of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
enopion, in the face of (literally or figuratively): before, in the presence (sight) of, to.
Psa 139:8 If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there!
You wrongfully believe that Hell is separation from God’s presence, for you misinterpret the Scriptures that speak of eternal torment. Of course God is present in Hell and those in Hell painfully and eternally feel that presence. Hell is separation from the comfortable presence of God. For the condemned, Hell is the uncomfortable experience of the presence of the holy and wrathful God, and the absence of His mercy and grace.
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Then why did you just post a bunch of verses that don't agree with the things you have crafted about God?
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This is an example of taking a narrative passage, full of anthropopathisms and treating it with wooden literalism. By this approach, God’s looking for Adam in Eden would imply He really did not know where Adam was at the time. Or that when God asked Adam and Eve “who told you that you were naked?” He really was ignorant of what was going on.
You cannot reject one account in Eden as not literal and accept the other account of the Sodom discourse as literal. Instead what is apparent in the Genesis 18 passage is that this going down of God is not an inquiry after knowledge as much as it is a coming of the Lord in judgment.
The real litmus test of is whether or not a literal interpretation of anthro-narratives would be ridiculous in view of the testimony of explicit didactic (teaching) passages. In this case, the Scripture is clear that God is omniscient (e.g., Hebrews 4:13; 2 Chronicles 16:9; Isaiah 46:9-11) and omnipresent (e.g., Psalms 139:7-10; Jeremiah 23:23-24). Thus, to interpret Genesis 18:16-32 as a wooden literalism is clearly incorrect. Does anyone honestly think that God was located so far away in Heaven that He did not know what was going on in Sodom? To accept this passage that PK uses as wooden literalisms would imply God not only does not know the future, but He does not know the present, or the past. In other words PK simply cannot claim the passage as a literalism about omniscience or omnipresence and deny the remaining implied literalisms. Clearly, then, this interpretation does not pass the anthro-“ridiculous test”. The way infinite God condescends to our finite language to talk about knowing and the way He actually knows must be appreciated and considered when reading the many narratives that openist latch onto to proof-text open theism.
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No one should doubt that the Christian God is a personal God. But what of God’s attributes? We must begin with a simple assertion:
God’s attributes are qualities that inhere in the being of God.
It is erroneous to state that all of God’s attributes flow from His love. Every positive attribute of God inheres in all positive attributes of God. God’s very essence is in His attributes. When discussing how God can be righteous, loving, omnipotent, etc., we must be careful to avoid separating the divine essence and the divine attributes. We must also guard against false conceptions of the relation in which these attributes stand with each other.
Unsettled theism would have us believe that unless God acts then God is not this or that, e.g., loving or just. Yet, when we consider the simplicity of God (that He is without constituent parts), we find that God and His attributes are a unified wholeness. God’s attributes are not so many parts that comprise the composition of God, as God is not composed of different parts (as are His creatures). Nor can God’s attributes be thought as something that is added to God’s being, for God is eternally perfect. Every attribute of God is essential and one attribute cannot be more essential than another. So we correctly say things like, God's love is always holy love, and God's holiness is always loving holiness. Thus it is futile to argue for the superiority of one divine attribute over another.
Then how do God’s attributes relate to God?
Firstly, God’s attributes certainly are not related to God’s essence as differentiators or major genus, as every other entity is, since God is the sole member of His genus or class. “Besides me there is no other.” We think of a chair as being a piece of furniture (major genus) with seat, four legs, and a back (differentiators from other kinds of furniture). Yet, God cannot be described in this manner.
Secondly, the attributes of God cannot be considered symbolical representations, such as a crown is symbolic of a king. For in this case, the crown only represents the king, and the king is wholly other than a crown. On the other hand, the attributes of God are like Him. Indeed, they are more like Him because they are identical with His being.
God’s attributes do not hide what and who God is, but rather they reveal Him. God’s attributes are what God is, in some meaningful way. God’s attributes are identical with His essence. Indeed, God’s attributes are not hypostases, as in polytheism or medieval Jewish speculation. God’s attributes are not independent archetypes of beauty, love, and the like, as in Platonism. God’s attributes are not emanations out of God, as in Gnosticism.
For example, when the Scriptures say God is righteous, it means that righteousness is an aspect of God’s being, God seen from a particular aspect/perspective—all of God in that aspect/perspective—and so on for every Scriptural statement about God. When the Scriptures say that God is righteous it means all of God—God in every respect—is righteous. As another example, when speaking of the powers of God we must understand that power is not about choices per se, power is about ability, capacity, authority, and right.
It bears repeating: every positive attribute of God inheres in all positive attributes of God.
In summary, when discussing how God can be righteous, loving, omnipotent, etc., we must be careful to avoid separating the divine essence and the divine attributes. We must also guard against false conceptions of the relation in which these attributes stand with each other. This is the most egregious error of unsettled theism. God’s attributes are very real determinations of His Divine Being, that is, qualities that inhere in the being of God. God’s perfections are God Himself as He has revealed Himself to mankind. God’s attributes are not parts composing the Divine Essence. The whole essence is in each attribute, and the attribute in the essence. We should not conceive of the divine essence as existing by itself, and prior to the attributes. God is not essence and attributes, but in attributes. Indeed, knowledge of the attributes carries with it knowledge of the essence.
I believe Boyd (OT) sees that Genesis passage as anthropomorphic, while still taking others about omniscience at face value (God changing His mind, etc.). TOL Enyart OTs go a step further and shy away from any hint of anthropomorphism.
Bottom line: Adam and Eve could not run away and hide from God. He knew every thought and location exhaustively, not just when He decided to go down or felt like knowing it. Sometimes He did test to know for sure: the person could pass or fail the test (hence some of the future was open and the test was genuine, not just for man's sake).
Bottom line: Adam and Eve could not run away and hide from God. He knew every thought and location exhaustively, not just when He decided to go down or felt like knowing it. Sometimes He did test to know for sure: the person could pass or fail the test (hence some of the future was open and the test was genuine, not just for man's sake).
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