Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Lion]

The body of Christ died on the cross. This was the only moment that Jesus Christ could become fully human so he could take on the sin of the world! The Divine Jesus could not sin because His nature was not sin, yet Jesus could let the Divine side of Himself rise out and in that moment take on all sin. That is why He came as to us with two natures

Noooooo…. Jesus died on the cross. The Father poured out His wrath on the Son, not just His body. Jesus then went to Hades… not to be punished for His sins (since He didn’t have any), but because He was separated from the Father, and to proclaim to the demons in chains, and lead the captives in paradise to heaven.

Jesus was not two people. He didn’t have two personalities as does the Trinity with three. If He did then the Trinity would be, as Knight coined, a quadrangle.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

God's word is clear

Philippians 2:7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.​

Who made Himself of no reputation??? The Son of God of course! God the Son made Himself of no reputation and came to earth as a man: Jesus.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,​

The appearance of a man? Who did this? Was it Jesus the man or the Son of God? Obviously the Son of God otherwise this verse is meaningless! It would be silly to say a man came in the form of a man.

He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.​

The Son of God, made Himself of no reputation, took the form of a man, and humbled Himself!

How much did He (the Son of God) humble himself?

To the point of death! Even the death on the cross. And that my friends is the word of God.

 

[godrulz]

Everyone is right?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Everyone is right?

:sigh: It doesn't look that way to me.

 

[Ktoyou]

Noooooo…. Jesus died on the cross. The Father poured out His wrath on the Son, not just His body. Jesus then went to Hades… not to be punished for His sins (since He didn’t have any), but because He was separated from the Father, and to proclaim to the demons in chains, and lead the captives in paradise to heaven.

Jesus was not two people. He didn’t have two personalities as does the Trinity with three. If He did then the Trinity would be, as Knight coined, a quadrangle.

You misunderstand what I am saying, Jesus was fully human and fully God. I am correct, His Divine nature never died! The Trinity was never separated, this is not correct.


Jesus was nailed to the cross, but in the moment of his death, His divine nature was (by necessity) separated from his human side. This is why he cried out. No sin could be felt as a fully human sin by a Divine being. Jesus died as a human, but it was His Divine side that has always lived and will, always live

 

[godrulz]

:sigh: It doesn't look that way to me.

Differences are nuanced, not radical. No one is teaching two Christs or 4 members in trinity (except Benny Hinn who used to teach 9 members in Godhead until rebuked).

 

[Evoken]

Did you read Lion's post? :idunno: It doesn't sound like you did.

I did, Lion said: "Death is separation. Jesus was separated from the Godhead but was reunited because He was righteous."

The part you quote says the same: "when we say that God the Son, who is now Jesus Christ, died on the cross we are not saying that he ceased to exist [...] we are saying that He was separated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit."

In previous posts you have said something similar: "God is a person in three parts. Therefore God (as a whole) did not die. Yet, one of those parts (the Son) became flesh and walked the earth and was killed on the cross and raised on the third day for us." (source)

And: "...it was actually 1/3 of the trinity that was placed on the cross to pay for our sins" (source)

So, the question can be addressed to you as well. Both of you, if I have been reading correctly, do not accept that Christ had two natures but only one, which is divine, right? So, what died was a part of God, of the divine nature, 1/3 of the Trinity as you said. Hence the question.


Evo

 

[Lion]

But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man. He is one person, so the Son of God (you say that I am; Peter also confessed this about Him in the flesh; cf. Jn. 1) was on the cross. Without understanding it, apparently He was also still omnipresent in heaven at the right hand of God (not dogmatic; based on one proof text)?

No, I don’t think that’s the case. I don’t believe that Jesus was omnipresent when on Earth (maybe not even in Heaven—but that’s for another thread). I think He was in perfect communion with the Father and The Holy Spirit and that is why He knew people’s thoughts at times. For instance;

Luke 8:45-47
And Jesus said, “Who touched Me?”
When all denied it, Peter and those with him said, “Master, the multitudes throng and press You, and You say, ‘Who touched Me?’
But Jesus said, “Somebody touched Me, for I perceived power going out from Me.” Now when the woman saw that she was not hidden, she came trembling; and falling down before Him, she declared to Him in the presence of all the people the reason she had touched Him and how she was healed immediately.

If He were omnipresent He would have known who was touching Him as it happened.

 

[Lion]

Jesus came back to life.

Jesus came back to life.

You misunderstand what I am saying, Jesus was fully human and fully God. I am correct, His Divine nature never died! The Trinity was never separated, this is not correct.


Jesus was nailed to the cross, but in the moment of his death, His divine nature was (by necessity) separated from his human side. This is why he cried out. No sin could be felt as a fully human sin by a Divine being. Jesus died as a human, but it was His Divine side that has always lived and will, always live

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with you. To say that Jesus’ Divine nature departed from Him, is something Christians (not you but way back) have just made up because they think it makes God less than God to say that part of the Trinity could die (separation). I, however, believe it makes God more powerful and wonderful that He would truly suffer as He did for our sakes.

The key is to remember what death is—it is separation from God. God is a triune God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). When Jesus became a man, He was still God, but with severe limitations. He could sin, and if He did He would be separated for all eternity from the Godhead, for if God does not give aid to fallen angels, He certainly wouldn’t give aid (in the form of salvation) to a fallen member of the trinity.

This is how much God loves us. To take the chance, the danger, that the Godhead could be affected. But He knew Jesus as only the Father can know the Son, and He trusted him.

But to save us the price had to be paid, so that justice could be met. Jesus paid the price. All of Jesus paid the price. And still, He overcame death.

 

[Lion]

I did, Lion said: "Death is separation. Jesus was separated from the Godhead but was reunited because He was righteous."

The part you quote says the same: "when we say that God the Son, who is now Jesus Christ, died on the cross we are not saying that he ceased to exist [...] we are saying that He was separated from God the Father and God the Holy Spirit."

In previous posts you have said something similar: "God is a person in three parts. Therefore God (as a whole) did not die. Yet, one of those parts (the Son) became flesh and walked the earth and was killed on the cross and raised on the third day for us." (source)

And: "...it was actually 1/3 of the trinity that was placed on the cross to pay for our sins" (source)

So, the question can be addressed to you as well. Both of you, if I have been reading correctly, do not accept that Christ had two natures but only one, which is divine, right? So, what died was a part of God, of the divine nature, 1/3 of the Trinity as you said. Hence the question.


Evo

I understand now. No, He couldn’t still be dead because the Bible states that He resurrected from the dead and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Good question.

 

[Evoken]

I understand now. No, He couldn’t still be dead because the Bible states that He resurrected from the dead and now sits at the right hand of the Father. Good question.

Ok, but my question is not asking wether he is dead now, it is: "Could it be the case that a "part" of the divine nature, that is, of God (the Son in this case), is killed and remains dead and separated and yet the other two "parts", the Father and the Holy Spirit continue to be without problem?"

See this statement from your previous post: "He could sin, and if He did He would be separated for all eternity from the Godhead, for if God does not give aid to fallen angels, He certainly wouldn’t give aid (in the form of salvation) to a fallen member of the trinity."

So, put a different way, could the Son remain separated for all eternity from the Godhead, as a fallen member of the Trinity, while the Holy Spirit and the Father continue to be as if the Son was not? Could the same occur say, to the Holy Spirit, while the Father remains alone as if neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit existed?

I am not asking wether or not that actually happened but wether it can happen.


Thanks for your answer,
Evo

 

[Ktoyou]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with you. To say that Jesus’ Divine nature departed from Him, is something Christians (not you but way back) have just made up because they think it makes God less than God to say that part of the Trinity could die (separation). I, however, believe it makes God more powerful and wonderful that He would truly suffer as He did for our sakes.

The key is to remember what death is—it is separation from God. God is a triune God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). When Jesus became a man, He was still God, but with severe limitations. He could sin, and if He did He would be separated for all eternity from the Godhead, for if God does not give aid to fallen angels, He certainly wouldn’t give aid (in the form of salvation) to a fallen member of the trinity.

We do have a fundamental different understanding of the nature of Jesus (He could sin just as He could fly but His nature was to redeem us, as was His nature to resist all sin) (Jesus is a persona of the trinity, not a part). I will not attempt to persuade you of my position. Just as it is pointless to persuade me after a lifetime of how Christian doctrine was taught to me.

My views are consistent with what most Catholics and Anglicans believe as well as many classical Protestants.

 

[Daniel50]

Who died on the cross?

Jesus Christ!

I Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus
Christ, and him crucified.

Mark 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to
minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

I Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock,
and unto the Greeks foolishness;

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Semantics? I really don't think so. Let me ask you and AMR... where was God the Son when Jesus was on cross?

Just as point #7 states in my Top 10 cheat sheet on the incarnation:

7. The divine nature of Christ is God, and is not limited to the physical confines of the body of Jesus.

In other words, God was omnipresent as always. You think God was somehow confined to the body of Jesus on the cross? Error!

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Jesus, who was the Son of God, and God the Son, emptied Himself of His Godly attributes...It was the first time the Trinity had been separated and it was terrible for the Father, Jesus (the Son), and the Holy Spirit.

Error! You, Knight, etc., will be unable to find any support for this sort of doctrine unless you turn to the heresies denounced at Chalcedon. Unbelieveable!

You fall into the kenotic theology heresies of old times past with this sort of thinking.

The only thing Christ emptied Himself of was His glory in the humiliation of the Incarnation. He was still the same God that is in Heaven now as He was then. The openist desires to see change in God so desperately that they would remake His very essence into something denounced hundreds of years ago by all of Christendom.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I seriously can't believe this topic is being discussed. Even before I was a Calvinist or got into reading any type of theology, I understood that Jesus is both God in the flesh and God in spirit. I learned this as a kid in Sunday School. AMR's stated position is basic Christianity (At least I thought so). I've never once met anybody in Christian circles that didn't understand that Jesus, his nature as the man, died for our sins on the Cross.

You are correct, sir! Folks here want to make this discussion all about Calvinism when it really all about God 's revelation.

I am glad the thread is open for it exposes how far to the fringes some have strayed from a proper doctrine of the nature of God and the Trinity.

 

[Ktoyou]

AMR, this is what I had said in different words. We must see the need for the human nature of Christ here:

The human nature completed the work of perfect obedience. The value and merit of that work is increased by the fact that it was done by a man who was God incarnate—adding dignity and significance to the ministry of Christ.

 

[Lon]

Hey Newman.....

When "that man" died, where was the Son of God?

Luk 23:46 Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" And after he said this he breathed his last.

Act 2:27 because you will not leave my soul in Hades,
nor permit your Holy One to experience decay.

Act 2:31 David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised


1Pe 3:18 30 Because Christ also suffered once for sins,
the just for the unjust,
to bring you to God,
by being put to death in the flesh
but by being made alive in the spirit.
1Pe 3:19 In it he went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 after they were disobedient long ago when God patiently waited in the days of Noah as an ark was being constructed. In the ark a few, that is eight souls, were delivered through water.
1Pe 3:21 And this prefigured baptism, which now saves you — not the washing off of physical dirt but the pledge of a good conscience to God — through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1Pe 3:22 who went into heaven and is at the right hand of God with angels and authorities and powers subject to him.

Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he captured captives; he gave gifts to men.

 

[Lion]

Ok, but my question is not asking wether he is dead now, it is: "Could it be the case that a "part" of the divine nature, that is, of God (the Son in this case), is killed and remains dead and separated and yet the other two "parts", the Father and the Holy Spirit continue to be without problem?"

See this statement from your previous post: "He could sin, and if He did He would be separated for all eternity from the Godhead, for if God does not give aid to fallen angels, He certainly wouldn’t give aid (in the form of salvation) to a fallen member of the trinity."

So, put a different way, could the Son remain separated for all eternity from the Godhead, as a fallen member of the Trinity, while the Holy Spirit and the Father continue to be as if the Son was not? Could the same occur say, to the Holy Spirit, while the Father remains alone as if neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit existed?

I am not asking wether or not that actually happened but wether it can happen.


Thanks for your answer,
Evo

Well, it could have happened (at any time in Jesus’ life including when He was tempted), and God is free, so yes it could happen. However, God has proven a million times over that He is righteous and just. A God of His word. So we can trust that He will remain righteous and just, and keep His word. But I believe that if Jesus would have fallen, He would have been separated forever, and we could not have come back to God.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Differences are nuanced, not radical. No one is teaching two Christs or 4 members in trinity (except Benny Hinn who used to teach 9 members in Godhead until rebuked).

It is more than nuances, gr. Knight isolates a quote from me without the context and goes off on the z-plane.

Moreover, I am surprised at how hesitant you are to denounce these obvious misunderstandings of the Triune Godhead. If Mormons or JWs were making these statements you would be outraged, yet you fence sit now.

Not radical? God is divisible into parts? (Knight) The Trinity can be separated from one another? (Lion) etc. etc. Come on, gr, stand for something or fall for anything.