Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

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Ask Mr. Religion

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No you do not..You believe christ the man did not exist until the virgin birth, right ?
I believe the Son of God existed from eternity, as well as the other two Persons of the Godhead. I do not believe "christ the man" existed prior to the virgin birth. Read on...

That makes you antichrist..
Careful, now. I am trying to give you some latitude because I do not think English is your first language and you are having trouble expressing yourself.

The relevant antichrist verse reads:

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist.
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[/FONT]Firstly, contrary to your assumption, I do confess that the eternal Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, came to earth and walked it as one Person, with a fully divine nature and a fully human nature indissolubly linked via a hypostatic union.

Secondly, this epistle’s context is about false teachers and our admonishment to avoid any fellowship with them. Specifically, the intent of 2 John 1:7 was to denounce the Docetism heresy, which denied the actual full humanity of Christ. The early Docetists claimed Jesus only appeared to be human, as if He were a phantom. Today, the term Docetist is applied to those whose Christology claims Jesus was different from what He seemed to be.

As we have seen in this thread and from the book of Hebrews, if Christ did not possess a fully human nature (with a fully divine nature), He would not be qualified to help us endure the trials of our human existence as our Intercessor (Hebrews 7:25) before the Father (see Hebrews 2:17-18; 4:15-16; 5:2, 7-9). In verses 10 and 11 of this Second Epistle of John, we are give very clear instructions to give not even the slightest encouragement to teachers who promote an erroneous view of Christ.

Thirdly, you cannot interpret the verse above to imply that "the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh" should read "Jesus Christ, who exists in the flesh, is coming", yet this is exactly what you are trying to do.

You can get a better understanding by examining other translations of the verse:

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. (NASB)

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. (NKJV)

Fourthy, the phrase “the coming of” (erchomenon) is a descriptive of Christ. In the New Testament “the one who is coming” is a Messianic designator (for example, see, Matthew 11:2; John1:15; John 1:27; John 12:13; Rev. 1:4).

The tense used is to emphasize the timeless character of the Incarnation. This is in line with the treatment given in John 3:31; 6:14; 11:27. The Incarnation was not just a mere historical event, instead it is a continuing truth that defines the union between deity and humanity present in Christ’s person. This union is not just limited to the point in history when Christ walked Palestine, but it is true of Him who now sits at the right hand of the Father.

Fifthly, and in conclusion, the particular phrase, “Jesus Christ in the flesh”, is about the incarnation. The fully divine nature and fully human nature is implied by John’s use of the full name of the Son of God, “Jesus Christ” (see also 1 John 4:2) as well as the previous discussion.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Jesus claims His divinity in this passage (John 8:58), using the Greek ego eimi (I AM) (Hebrew: ani hu). His audience was not mistaken about His claim, too, for the started to stone Him for apparent blasphemy.

Elsewhere in John, the striking parallelism between the OT and the NT is seen from the LXX (Septuagint) renderings of two passages that make it obvious that Christ was being very explicit about who He claimed to be:

Isaiah 43:10: hina pisteusete ... hoti ego eimi
John 13:19: hina pisteusete ... hoti ego eimi

John obviously knew the LXX and for John to render 13:19 as in Isaiah 43:10 was no accident; he wanted to make the connection between Christ and Yahweh clear. What is in view here is the divinity of Christ that He is claiming, not something related to His physical body.

John's connection between Jesus and Yahweh cannot be made outside of a Trinitarian understanding. Anyone reading John can see for themselves that The Son of God is not the same person as God the Father. Yet when we connect the ego eimi with the anu hu it is clear that two persons are sharing one nature—God's! Now add the discussion of the Holy Spirit in John’s gospel, wherein it is clear that the Holy Spirit is not the same person as the Son of God or God the Father, and we have the underlying foundation for the Trinitarian doctrine!

But, this passage, nor any other, is teaching that Christ existed as a man prior to the Incarnation. There is no warrant for you to draw this conclusion, for if you do, you are basically implying, from the discussion above, that God has always existed as a man. Yours is an obviously erroneous interpretation.

I recommend two references to help you understand this:
1. A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1934)

2. A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1932)
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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I think that it's an irrelevent distinction. Yes, I do believe that the Incarnation occured at a specific moment im time, but for an Immutable God, temporality is irrelevent. God willed ex aeternitate to become man.

Furthermore, I don't see how it matters in this occassion. Christ rose from the dead and ascended into Heaven bearing His human nature...didn't he?
We are in violent agreement, so I don't know what you are trying to communicate, Traditio.

The distinction is irrelevant for those that "get it". I do. You apparently do. But...I am having a discussion with a person who is obviously not getting it and struggling. You have butted in with subtleties that add no value to a conversation I am having with someone who clearly cannot grasp subtle distinctions in the first place.

With that, I will duly acknowledge your presence in the forum, :wave:, and get back to my discussion.
 

godrulz

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A choice mangling of Proverbs 10:13! :)

Well, if you can't think of anything else to say, you probably are best off not saying anything. I totally understand what you are saying, I just think you are wrong.

Beloved hates my guts and thinks I am hell-bound for rejecting his extreme Calvinism. Like it or not, he is probably my brother, so don't take him with more than a grain of salt in his peanut gallery comments (consider his views on Christ though since they are more biblical than yours).
 

godrulz

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Did you read the article ?

also you being a blasphemous apostate you surely are not giving me any spiritual advise..

Great...fellow Calvinists fighting...

AMR: Let's join forces. With my looks and brains and Open Theism truth and your articulate verbosity, we can go places.

When you see the light and become an OT, we will be a formidable foe, the gruesome twosome.:greedy:
 

godrulz

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Thats correct you foolish man , he was the christ before the incarnation you nit wit..lol

Christ is a title for the Messiah, Anointed One, a temporal, incarnational title. He certainly preexisted as the eternal Word/God before the incarnation, but He was not called Christ until He walked the earth. We do talk about the Angel of the Lord as the pre-incarnate Christ in general terms. We also talk about Messianic prophecies of the Christ in advance, but do not presuppose He had a body before Jn. 1 /4 B.C.
 

godrulz

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You do know that implied profanity is a no-no, right? You do know that the topic is one of the most sacred topics of the Scripture, no?

Persons that don't care end up erecting false intellectual idols and go off worshiping them. God does not expect the faithful to be ignorant rubes that thump bibles and are unable to give an answer for the reasons for their faith.

If you don't care no one is compelling you to.


Is this the infamous Z Man who is a hyper-Calvinist and does not bat an eyelash that God is responsible for the rape and murder of babies?

AMR: Don't you feel like you are on a roll? Don't misunderstand the analogy, but it is like the 'force' is growing stronger within you. Keep up the defense and proclamation of the faith once for all entrusted to the saints (Jude 3...which is not Calvinism, of course, but I like your Christology).
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Is this the infamous Z Man who is a hyper-Calvinist and does not bat an eyelash that God is responsible for the rape and murder of babies?
I finally connected the dots and recalled this:

I'm a legend here Stipe. I've been on this forum since your momma was still wiping your nose!

I'm surprised that someone like you - who just goes around and makes silly comments with no intellectual thought put into them whatsoever - is still around. Oh, wait a minute; I take that back - Lighthouse is still here...

I remember how funny it was that he had stipe and LH so pegged. I also remembered reading one older 1:1 thread between him and Knight. The topic escapes me now.

How does one become a legend within TOL?
 

godrulz

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I finally connected the dots and recalled this:



I remember how funny it was that he had stipe and LH so pegged. I also remembered reading one older 1:1 thread between him and Knight. The topic escapes me now.

How does one become a legend within TOL?

Die?

Continually post really stupid or really smart things?

To be or not to be...famous or infamous.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
amr says

Firstly, contrary to your assumption, I do confess that the eternal Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, came to earth and walked it as one Person, with a fully divine nature and a fully human nature indissolubly linked via a hypostatic union.

But thats not what the verse says, it does not say the eternal son of God , it says the man jesus christ came in the flesh..

1 jn 4:

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Jesus christ the man came in flesh and blood when incarnated, however he exsisted as a spiritual anointed christ man before that..

1cor 15:

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
 

godrulz

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Look, AMR. Proof texts that wipe us out. Oh no!:confused:

Thankfully, Beloved has corrected centuries of misunderstanding by the Church under the leadership of the Head, Christ, and the Holy Spirit who leads into truth.

TOL has attracted the best theologians in the world to correct all the errors of the old guard who were uncorrectable until this moment in time.

Hats off to Beloved, Sozo, LH, STP, etc. for their brilliance (wait, they contradict each other...we need a new guru...AMR, up to it?).
 

Palladius

New member
On another thread AMR stated....Curious....

How would you respond to a statement like that?

It seems to me that AMR is introducing a fourth member of the Godhead:

- The Father
- The Son (who never died on the cross)
- The Son (who did die on the cross)
- The Holy Spirit

Didn't the Son of God come in the flesh and die on the cross for our sins? Or was the incarnation just an illusion (i.e., body double) as AMR seems to be suggesting?

It would seem to me that if the sacrificial atonement has any theological meaning in a Christian context, then the Son of God must have been "spiritually separated" (i.e. Christ must have experienced spiritual death) from the Father. If not, how was Christ made sin who knew no sin?
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Hats off to Beloved, Sozo, LH, STP, etc. for their brilliance (wait, they contradict each other...we need a new guru...AMR, up to it?).

I understand you were just mocking, but I don't claim to be even a novice
theologian.

I just BELIEVE THE BIBLE. Try it, you'll be amazed at what you will learn!
 

Nick M

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Who did die on the cross?

A. The easter bunny

B. Muhammed

C. Jesus, son of David, Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, God the Son

D. Bill Clinton
 

Lighthouse

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I understand you were just mocking, but I don't claim to be even a novice
theologian.

I just BELIEVE THE BIBLE. Try it, you'll be amazed at what you will learn!
The odd thing is that you, Sozo and I agree, and don't contradict. Not on this, and not on a lot of other things. But we do contradict beloved57.
 

Z Man

New member
Is this the infamous Z Man who is a hyper-Calvinist and does not bat an eyelash that God is responsible for the rape and murder of babies?
I believe God's glory is more important than the life of a human. Wouldn't you agree? I mean, Jesus did pretty much prove this point, didn't he?
godrulz said:
AMR: Let's join forces. With my looks and brains and Open Theism truth and your articulate verbosity, we can go places.

When you see the light and become an OT, we will be a formidable foe...
Ha! I'd rather be an atheist than believe in a God who succumbs to the will of mankind.
 
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