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No human soul was present in what you describe as your understanding of the Incarnation of Christ, correct?
Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.
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Yes, I agree with this is the sense one may have a spiritual body, yet some insist that our actual physical body is resurrected and made immortal. From that, I assume that one most eat and sleep, as well as all the other limitations the physical body imposes.
Perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part, however, I think we may have a body of some essence, or finiteness, but not an earthly body, which is immortal.
Sozo
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The soul that Jesus had was His prior to the incarnation. It was not a newly created soul.
No, it doesn’t make Him just a superman… it makes Him real. Knight once asked a question that I think really sums it up and it went like this;
The answer of course is no. God doesn’t know it because it isn’t there. It’s the same way with the future. It hasn’t happened yet, it isn’t all pre-planned, and God isn’t moving us around with His spiritual finger like little puppets. The future is unknown to God because it hasn’t happened yet. What God does know of the future is what He can deduce with His incredible intellect from what He knows about us and interrelating actions, and by what He makes happen.
This does not make God weaker, it makes God more powerful, wonderful and loving, because He doesn’t want dolls to play with, or a movie to watch that He already knows the ending too, and because He can work His will even through knuckle headed free will personalities like ours.
Now that’s power, baby!
:mrt: :king: :Grizzly: :checker:
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Then only God walked the earth during Christ's ministry in a human body.
When the Scriptures speak of God becoming a man, the soul of a man is part of that humanity. It is not the soul of God subsisting within a human shell.
No humanity, other than biological, would exist in such a view of the Incarnation. Where there is no humanity, there is no proper sacrifice and we have no High Priest that made an offering and was the offering for humanity.
Angels do not die, but to become a sacrifice for us, Christ was made a little lower than the angels. It was the humanity of Christ that enabled Him to die:
Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
If your view is taken, no one died on the Cross, for God, the Second Person of the Trinity, the only soul you have within the physical body, cannot die, and we remain in our sins unjustified before God for our faith.
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Sozo
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This post of yours is conjecture based on your theological persuasion, and completely unbiblical.
Jesus was God in the flesh, not a new persona or new soul fused with the identity of the eternal Son of God. The bible in no way speaks of Jesus being someone with two natures.
Godrulz said
Perhaps sin is not passed down, but rather since Adam was cut off from God once He sinned, and sense in Adam all of mankind died (separation from God), then it might be better stated that when Adam sinned, it severed the connection between Him and God and disabled the spiritual link that would have passed from him to his children.
Of course that link was still completely present in God, so the connection was never severed in Jesus.
Hmm… this is interesting. I have always held to the idea that sin was passed down through the Father, hence, sin did not pass to Jesus because His Father was God. However, you bring up an interesting point, which has helped clarify my thought on this.
Perhaps sin is not passed down, but rather since Adam was cut off from God once He sinned, and sense in Adam all of mankind died (separation from God), then it might be better stated that when Adam sinned, it severed the connection between Him and God and disabled the spiritual link that would have passed from him to his children.
Of course that link was still completely present in God, so the connection was never severed in Jesus.
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No the purple alligator is nonsense; it never will have an existence. The future is certain that it will occur as I write this. The example is inadequate
I believe that when Jesus paid our price, He paid the whole price. It wasn’t just symbolism, or pretend. He suffered the true price of sin…which is death. Death is separation from God, and that is what He suffered. But, because of His righteousness death (separation from God) could not hold Him and He was resurrected.
I agree with SOZO here. Christ had a divine nature... as I believe Adam did before he sinned. God didn't put a nature in Adam contrary to God, did He? After all, as I stated earlier, God breathed His Spirit into Adam.
Wait a minute, Christ was made?
The word ‘was’ implies that Christ is in time, yet His Divine self is beyond time. Christ ‘is’
The incarnate was made, if that is what you mean, but one cannot ever say that Jesus Christ who is fully God is lower than the angles. No, Christ is always God, who became fully human, yet all we can assume is we must say He became because he appeared as a man to us in time.
I think it was necessary to really pay the price for our sins. The separation from the Father is what would have happened to us. Jesus was not tormented in Hades because He was righteous. And three days was symbolic of the Trinity and God's plan using the Trinity to rejoin us to Him.
Also Jesus proclaimed His victory over the fallen angels plan to stop His coming.
Yes, I believe that Christ could have sinned and if He had He would no longer have been righteous and therefore could not have remained in the Godhead. That was the incredible risk that God took for us. But since Jesus is God, (although with His own personality) God could trust Himself to pass the test, which Jesus did.
God is wonderful.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Let's try another approach.
1. When a believer dies, their physical presence on this earth vanishes, their bodies are placed in the earth, and they return to the dust from which they came. This is what we normally refer to as death, to die. Some say, euphemistically, when a person dies, "he no longer exists". But, as Christians, we know this to be not true.
2. The believer's soul is immediately present with the Lord upon cessation of physical life on earth.
3. Now, Christ was two natures (divine and human) in one Person, in one body. The human nature necessarily included a fully human soul, just as you or I possess. (Our humanity is within our souls, not just some physical, biological shell.)
4. God is omnipresent. The Son of God, is God, just as the Holy Spirit is God, and God the Father is God. There is only one God, with three personal subsistences.
5. In Christ, a hypostatic union between the full humanity and the full divinity existed. By 'divinity' I mean, the subsistence of the Second Person of the Trinity. This union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.
6. Now Christ died on the cross. Just like any human, there was no longer any physical presence of the body walking the earth.
7. At death, the human soul of Christ was in Paradise, but.....stay with me now...
6. Even after death, hypostatic union between the human and the divine natures was preserved--recall that the union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.
7. This means that the hypostatic union was present in Paradise for those three days.
8. So both the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, and the human soul of the man Jesus were both in Paradise, still joined, forever joined, hypostatically.
9. Yet, this does not mean that God was confined to Paradise, for God is everywhere present. God can certainly be hypostatically joined with the human soul of Jesus and still be everywhere else, just as He is always, just as when Christ says wherever two or three believers are present, so is He present.
10. This also does not mean that somehow the Persons of the Trinity were now divided and one was absent from the other two. God is everywhere present. The three Persons of the Trinity are subsistences of one, single, divine, essence, God. For example, when we are filled with the Holy Spirit that does not mean the Spirit is absent from the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is God, just as is the Father and the Son.
11. When Christ was resurrected, the hypostatic union was still preserved, and Christ exists in His glorified body in Heaven now, possessing both a human soul and the subsistence of the Second Person of the Trinity.
12. So who died then at Galgotha? In every way we understand and speak of death, the man Jesus Christ died. Did God die that day? Of course not. To speak of God dying is to speak a no-thing, for God cannot die.
13. But, unlike the occasion when you or I die, we will not be resurrected in three days (unless Christ returns). Christ was resurrected. He is risen. God does not rise again. God does not die. In addition to His divine nature, Christ must possess a fully human nature, body and soul. Otherwise, if Christ was 'only' God in a human body, and not also a fully human man with a soul, to speak of Christ dying and rising again is to say the equivalent of God died and rose again.
Freak
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Jesus wasn't separated from God as He is God.
Yes. I was obviously not saying Christ is not part of the Trinity if that's what she meant. :thumb: Thanks Knight.
So.... you don't believe the Son died on the cross?
Freak
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Romans 5:8 speaks to this ~ God demonstrated His love in this: that while we were yet still sinners Christ died for us.So.... you don't believe the Son died on the cross?
Therefore your answer is what? :idunno:
Did the Son die on the cross to pay for our sin or not?
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