Who died on the cross? - a Hall of Fame thread.

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Wait a minute, Christ was made?

The word ‘was’ implies that Christ is in time, yet His Divine self is beyond time. Christ ‘is’

The incarnate was made, if that is what you mean, but one cannot ever say that Jesus Christ who is fully God is lower than the angles. No, Christ is always God, who became fully human, yet all we can assume is we must say He became because he appeared as a man to us in time.

Just as Hebrews 2:9 states (and I quoted in my post), "But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus".

Of course this is speaking of the Incarnation and I never implied anything else.

If the bible can say it, why can't we?:think:

 

[Lion]

AMR what your post basically states is that Christ had the emotions of a man... which BTW are the same emotions God has. That's why we have them in the first place. God gets angry. God grieves. Gos is saddened. God is happy and His heart is touched. The attributes you showed to try and make Jesus' nature only a man, is void because that is God's nature as well.

 

[beloved57]

So.... you don't believe the Son died on the cross?

Jesus christ had two natures one a human nature (sinless) and one a Divine nature The Son Of God..Each nature necessitates a being hence he was a being according to his human nature and a being according to His Divine nature, Jesus Christ was two different beings and yet One person..The human being died on the cross..

 

[Freak]

Therefore your answer is what? :idunno:

Did the Son die on the cross to pay for our sin or not?

The answer was Romans 5:8. Jesus who is God died. This is the answer from God's Word.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

The answer was Romans 5:8. Jesus who is God died. This is the answer from God's Word.

So then why are you arguing that the Son didn't die on the cross? :idunno:

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Jesus christ had two natures one a human nature (sinless) and one a Divine nature The Son Of God..Each nature necessitates a being hence he was a being according to his human nature and a being according to His Divine nature, Jesus Christ was two different beings and yet One person..The human being died on the cross..

Utter hogwash. Jesus didn't have two natures, that is make believe gobbledygook.

 

[Freak]

So then why are you arguing that the Son didn't die on the cross? :idunno:

I never stated this. I asked Lion about the issue of separation.

 

[Sozo]

Jesus christ had two natures one a human nature (sinless) and one a Divine nature The Son Of God..Each nature necessitates a being hence he was a being according to his human nature and a being according to His Divine nature, Jesus Christ was two different beings and yet One person..The human being died on the cross..

:kookoo:

 

[Freak]

Utter hogwash. Jesus didn't have two natures, that is make believe gobbledygook.

Romans 1:3 NIV and Romans 1:20 NIV speak of two natures of God.

 

[Lion]

This is your usual mis-characterization. You must be dyslexic or something.

Humanity of Christ is referred to in Scripture as the Son of Man
Divinity of Christ is referred to in Scripture as the Son of God

These help us understand many contexts, such as which nature is in view at the time. Is the passage referring to Christ's humanity or His divinity? These two designations help us come to grips with things.

What I have always maintained and you seem to be unable or unwilling to comprehend is that:
(1) The Incarnation of Christ comprised a fully human and fully divine nature in one Person.
(2) Divinity cannot die, cease to exist, or any other terms persons use to refer to the process of death.
(3) When humans die, their souls, if believers, are immediately present with the Lord.
(4) The divine nature, prior to the death of Christ, was united with a living, breathing, human nature.
(5) Christ’s death did not destroy the union of the two natures. While Christ was in the tomb, the divine nature was united with a human nature whose spirit was in paradise.
(6) When Jesus’ physical body was in the grave (tomb), the divine nature was still united with it, but not confined by it, for God is omnipresent.
(7) Death did not sever the union of the two natures of Christ, but the divine nature did not die. By 'die' I mean any commonly used euphemism associated with death. We simply cannot speak of God as being able to somehow die.

Your antics are becoming quite juvenile and I hope for better from you. You are not winning the points you are apparently desperate to win by your behavior.<o></o>

First off, the four Gospels show didn't facets of Jesus. The Gospel of John shows Him as God... to make a point to us. The book of Luke shows Him as man... to make a point. The book of Matthew as King... to make a point. The book of Mark as servant... to make a point.

You don't try and say Jesus had four natures, do you? No. The point God shows us is that Christ, God, the King, came as a man, and a servant of man, to save us from our sins.

Christ did not have two natures, there was no sin nature present in him, as there is in us, members of the Body of Christ. Because He never sinned, and He was never cut off from the Father until He became sin for us. And then He was cut off, paying our price.

 

[Sozo]

Utter hogwash. Jesus didn't have two natures, that is make believe gobbledygook.

And logically leads to his conclusion that Jesus was two beings in one. His "Jesus" is as double-minded as he is.

 

[Lion]

I am very familiar with and reject docetism as a gnostic fabrication. It is not at all what anyone on this thread has been affirming.

Jesus had the body of a man, just as real as you and I. He suffered and died in that body. In His "body" He was just as much a man as you and I, but I am not just a body, and Jesus did not take on a new persona of someone who did not pre-exist. A "fully" man nature co-existing with His Divine nature. He was God manifested in a body of flesh, and bone, and blood, etc; in ALL respects a man's body that was prepared for Him. He is not an "illusion" as you are suggesting we are teaching. Please don't use the tactics that godrulz would use, that is beneath you.

Or is it? :think:

:thumb:

 

[Lion]

Then only God walked the earth during Christ's ministry in a human body.

When the Scriptures speak of God becoming a man, the soul of a man is part of that humanity. It is not the soul of God subsisting within a human shell.

No humanity, other than biological, would exist in such a view of the Incarnation. Where there is no humanity, there is no proper sacrifice and we have no High Priest that made an offering and was the offering for humanity.

Angels do not die, but to become a sacrifice for us, Christ was made a little lower than the angels. It was the humanity of Christ that enabled Him to die:

Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

If your view is taken, no one died on the Cross, for God, the Second Person of the Trinity, the only soul you have within the physical body, cannot die, and we remain in our sins unjustified before God for our faith.

Who says the soul of God is any different than the soul He gave to us? It doesn't mean we are God... but rather, as I have stated before, that God made Adam have a soul like His. The difference is that our souls are cut off from God because of Adam's sin, but through Christ our soul/spirit is reunited with Him.

 

[Lion]

Quick response

No the purple alligator is nonsense; it never will have an existence. The future is certain that it will occur as I write this. The example is inadequate

You're playing games here. Okay how about this? Does God know what my son will be thinking five years from now when he's skydiving from an airplane over the Andes? No, because my son almost certainly won't be doing that. Now I do have a son, and the future is still going to happen, but since the future isn't preplanned God can't know what my son will be thinking while doing something he isn't doing.

He could make my son do it, and make him think exactly what He wants him to think... then God would know, but otherwise... huh-uh. God can't know exhaustively what will happen in the future except what He will make happen.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Romans 1:3 NIV and Romans 1:20 NIV speak of two natures of God.

We are not discussing the nature of the Godhead. We are specifically discussing the nature of the Son (specifically after the incarnation).

Furthermore... Romans 1:20 is Speaking about the Godhead.... (and moreover not specifically in the time frame of the Son in the flesh)

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse

P.S. The NIV is a awful translation.

 

[Lion]

I never stated this. I asked Lion about the issue of separation.

Um... death is separation. Nothing else.

 

[Lion]

Let's try another approach.

1. When a believer dies, their physical presence on this earth vanishes, their bodies are placed in the earth, and they return to the dust from which they came. This is what we normally refer to as death, to die. Some say, euphemistically, when a person dies, "he no longer exists". But, as Christians, we know this to be not true.

2. The believer's soul is immediately present with the Lord upon cessation of physical life on earth.

3. Now, Christ was two natures (divine and human) in one Person, in one body. The human nature necessarily included a fully human soul, just as you or I possess. (Our humanity is within our souls, not just some physical, biological shell.)

4. God is omnipresent. The Son of God, is God, just as the Holy Spirit is God, and God the Father is God. There is only one God, with three personal subsistences.

5. In Christ, a hypostatic union between the full humanity and the full divinity existed. By 'divinity' I mean, the subsistence of the Second Person of the Trinity. This union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.

6. Now Christ died on the cross. Just like any human, there was no longer any physical presence of the body walking the earth.

7. At death, the human soul of Christ was in Paradise, but.....stay with me now...

6. Even after death, hypostatic union between the human and the divine natures was preserved--recall that the union cannot be separated, confused, mixed, or divided.

7. This means that the hypostatic union was present in Paradise for those three days.

8. So both the Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, and the human soul of the man Jesus were both in Paradise, still joined, forever joined, hypostatically.

9. Yet, this does not mean that God was confined to Paradise, for God is everywhere present. God can certainly be hypostatically joined with the human soul of Jesus and still be everywhere else, just as He is always, just as when Christ says wherever two or three believers are present, so is He present.

10. This also does not mean that somehow the Persons of the Trinity were now divided and one was absent from the other two. God is everywhere present. The three Persons of the Trinity are subsistences of one, single, divine, essence, God. For example, when we are filled with the Holy Spirit that does not mean the Spirit is absent from the Godhead. The Holy Spirit is God, just as is the Father and the Son.

11. When Christ was resurrected, the hypostatic union was still preserved, and Christ exists in His glorified body in Heaven now, possessing both a human soul and the subsistence of the Second Person of the Trinity.

12. So who died then at Galgotha? In every way we understand and speak of death, the man Jesus Christ died. Did God die that day? Of course not. To speak of God dying is to speak a no-thing, for God cannot die.

13. But, unlike the occasion when you or I die, we will not be resurrected in three days (unless Christ returns). Christ was resurrected. He is risen. God does not rise again. God does not die. In addition to His divine nature, Christ must possess a fully human nature, body and soul. Otherwise, if Christ was 'only' God in a human body, and not also a fully human man with a soul, to speak of Christ dying and rising again is to say the equivalent of God died and rose again.

You know, you never really say what death is here. You say what happens to a believer when His body dies. Big deal. We are talking about real death. You say what it is not...non-existence... come on now... just say it. Death is separation from God. Period.

 

[Lion]

Romans 1:3 NIV and Romans 1:20 NIV speak of two natures of God.

Try looking it up in a real Bible Freak.

Romans 1:3 (New King James Version)
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

:loser:

 

[beloved57]

Romans 1:3 NIV and Romans 1:20 NIV speak of two natures of God.

actually both natures are declared in rom 1


3Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

 

[Evoken]

Yes, I believe that Christ could have sinned and if He had He would no longer have been righteous and therefore could not have remained in the Godhead. That was the incredible risk that God took for us. But since Jesus is God, (although with His own personality) God could trust Himself to pass the test, which Jesus did.

God is wonderful.

More like..."the Gods are wonderful". Here you are affirming once again a belief in three different gods, not a single God. If God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4), then God cannot sin against himself and separate himself from himself. For that to happen you would need three separate gods, not one God in three persons. Lord Jesus explicitly affirms his union and equality with the Father in the Scriptures:

John 10:30
"I and the Father are one".

John 14:10-11
"Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in me, he doth the works. Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?"

John 5:19
"Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner."

This union is not merely a voluntary act from the Son, something that he chooses to do but as the last verse states since he cannot do anything of himself, it is something that he does of necessity. Since God cannot deny himself (2 Timothy 2:13), then naturally, the Son being God and one with the Father, who is himself perfect (Matthew 5:48), cannot sin or do something against his will, since he too is perfect. Note also on the second set of verses that just as the Son cannot do anything by himself, the Father who abides in him is who both speaks and works everything in him. The reverse as he affirms is true, he is in the Father as the Father is in him. What this means is that each person of the Trinity is within each other. There is no separation between the persons but each one is within the other, there is no such thing as the Father willing some thing and the Son or the Spirit another thing and much less of the Son willing anything against the Father. In fact, not even the possibility of it can be admitted for that would destroy the unity of the persons and when it comes to sin, it would entail a lack of virtue in God, for the possibility of sinning far from being a "freedom" is itself a defect.

Yet, as you have affirmed, the Son as well as the Father could sin, so, if the Son had sinned during his ministry he would not only have become a fallen member of the Godhead, but since whatever the Son does the Father does as well, it would mean that the Father would have ALSO sinned with the Son, leading, as you believe, to a destruction of the Godhead! Hopefully the reason why the Son not simply did not sin but cannot sin is clear now.

The unity between the persons is also manifested when God is about to create man (Genesis 1:26) and we see it again in the gospel of John, where we read that "All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. (John 1:1-3). St. Paul also affirms the intimate and inseparable union between the Father and the Son:

Colossians 1:15-17
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature. For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. And he is before all, and by him all things consist."

Hebrews 1:2-3
"In these days hath spoken to us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the world. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power..."

Note here that not only the creation of all things but also their continued existence are things that are said to be the work of the Trinity. This is the same that we read in John cited above. The unity of the Godhead is maintained and as Lord Jesus himself states, as he abides in the Father and the Father in him, there is an unity of operation in all that God does where the three persons of the Trinity always work together. To separate the persons of the Godhead is to destroy the Godhead. To say that the Son could be separated is to affirm an independent existence of the Son by which he is his own essence independently of the Father and the Spirit. It is to affirm two or even three separate gods. By doing that you step away from monotheism and land into tritheism. It is to affirm not one God, as the Scripture does but three. The denial that Lord Jesus is both fully human and fully God, one person in two natures naturally leads to a separation of the Godhead and to the necessary affirmation that the Son can be a separate God independently of the Father and the Spirit, something that is, of course, contrary to Scripture.

Now, what about some of the verses that seem to imply a separation of the Father and the Son? There are a couple of them, it is true, but such verses far from affirming a separation of the Trinity, simply affirm the two natures of Christ. For the sake of brevity, I will focus on a single one in this post that is commonly used.

Matthew 27:46
"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying: Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani? that is, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Keeping in mind the unity between the Father and the Son shown above, the first thing to note about this verse is that Lord Jesus does not says God the Father, it just says God, Lord Jesus is very careful about the words he uses. This is a very important distinction. This cry is said to fulfill a Messianic prophecy, it is the same saying found in the Psalm: "O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me?" (Psalm 21:1). This chapter is heavy on the fulfillment of several prophesies, this is the context on which things are happening here. The Psalm 21 closely matches many of the events that take place in the life of Christ, which we see in Matthew 27:

Psalm 21:1
"O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me?"
Matthew 27:46
"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Psalm 21:8
"He hoped in the Lord, let him deliver him: let him save him, seeing he delighteth in him."
Matthew 27:43
"He trusted in God; let him now deliver him if he will have him; for he said: I am the Son of God."

Psalm 21:17
"The council of the malignant hath besieged me. They have dug my hands and feet."

A clear parallel with his crucifixion and the trial before the council.

Psalm 21:19
"They parted my garments amongst them; and upon my vesture they cast lots."
Matthew 27:35
"They divided my garments among them; and upon my vesture they cast lots."

Read the entire Psalm, it is quite nice. With the cry in Matthew 27:46, Lord Jesus was alluding to the whole Psalm and given it's triumphant ending, far from being a cry of despair or of separation, it is one that carries the hope of vindication. Specially of relevance is the verse which says: "Let all the seed of Israel fear him: because he hath not slighted nor despised the supplication of the poor man. Neither hath he turned away his face from me: and when I cried to him he heard me." (Psalm 21:25).

It is also important to note other things that occur right at that moment. For example, it was right at the ninth hour that the cry was made (Matthew 27:46), why? Because the ninth hour is the exact time of the Jewish afternoon prayers (Acts 3:1, Acts 10:30). Christ was also a faithful Jew after all so it is only logical that he would say his prayers at the appointed hours (obedient unto death and all that...). This is his last prayer.

Note also the three hours of darkness that go right before that (Matthew 27:45), his claim that: "It is consummated." (John 19:30), right after they gave him the vinegar to drink, the events that occur right after he gave up his spirit (Matthew 27:51-53) and the comment of the guard who realized right away who Christ was (Matthew 27:54). All these events point clearly to an eschatological sign, much more than a simple prayer and certainly not a feeling of being separated from the Father. Far from a cry of separation, instead this is his declaration that he is the fulfillment of that Psalm, which was seen by the Jews, many of whom were present there, as a messianic Psalm of which Christ is the fulfillment.


Evo