Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

Yes, if the person is completely gone, then the only thing left would be God's remembrance of them.


Believers have their names written in a special book.

Malachi 3:16 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.​

And there are other books that are used for the memory.

Revelation 20:12 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.​

What about the defects in us that God says He will not remember, will we be resurrected with no memory of our sins?

Jeremiah 31:34 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

I may be wrong here, but the only time the books are ever mentioned is in connection with live beings--even live "dead" beings (see Rev 20:12). The live "dead" beings had been raised for judgment. Thus, it seems like the books determine if the beings get to remain alive or have to "die" (sometimes "die again"). I think this makes sense for Moses use of the term "your book" (Ex 32:32). Thus I don't think the books are used for remembrance of physical or mental or emotional characteristics, but likely for deeds ("books were opened") and whatever is required to remain alive ("another book"), like in your Mal 3:16 reference.

And I am curious what kind of "books" these are. Metaphorical, angelic, scrolls, computer files, or what? Moses' reference seemed like it was to a metaphorical thing. In a book God had written was Moses' name, and the blotting out of it would suggest his death. Does God need such a book? Doesn't He remember? or is it for other beings to use for judgment?

 

[Derf]

What about the defects in us that God says He will not remember, will we be resurrected with no memory of our sins?

Jeremiah 31:34 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

I hope so, and of bad things people did to us. But that seems like it would eliminate such a large portion of our memories. Maybe, since God, who can't forget anything, won't "remember" our sins, it means they won't be held against us. Maybe, then, we won't remember our sins as something grievous, but something sufficiently paid for and settled, as a constant reminder of Jesus' love for us.

Maybe that's the idea behind Paul's warning in 1 Cor 3:15. Our bad deeds will not be remembered, and if there aren't a lot of good deeds, there might not be much to remember.

 

[Derf]

A "soul" is being raised from a state of being dead physically and therefore separated from his physical body into a state of having a body described as being a spiritual body (1 Cor.15:44).

So you would go with a metaphorical "raising"? Yet the text in 1 Th 4:16 is compared to Jesus' "rising" in 1 Th 4:14. And Jesus' rising could not ever be considered just metaphorical.

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "spirit" is "a human soul that has left the body" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon). And that is exactly what is being referred to in the following passage:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

The reference to the "spirits of just men" is to the souls of Christians who have already died physically and are in heaven now without a body.

"Made perfect"? Men without bodies are "made perfect"? Then why do they need bodies later? Sounds like they aren't quite made perfect, yes?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

"Made perfect"? Men without bodies are "made perfect"? Then why do they need bodies later? Sounds like they aren't quite made perfect, yes?

The following words are certainly not speaking of anyone's "body" being made perfect:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​

Peter speaks of the salvation of the "soul" at 1 Pet.1:9. Hebrews 10:14 speaks of the perfection of the "soul."

So you would go with a metaphorical "raising"? Yet the text in 1 Th 4:16 is compared to Jesus' "rising" in 1 Th 4:14. And Jesus' rising could not ever be considered just metaphorical.

When a soul receives a new body then it can be said that he rose from the dead and there is nothing metaphorical about that.

 

[Derf]

The following words are certainly not speaking of anyone's "body" being made perfect:

"By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified" (Heb.10:10,14).​

Peter speaks of the salvation of the "soul" at 1 Pet.1:9. Hebrews 10:14 speaks of the perfection of the "soul."

And both seem to be speaking of salvation of the person--which includes the body. It's not just that the body is made perfect, but the person, which includes a body, is made perfect to live forever (among other things, perhaps.

When a soul receives a new body then it can be said that he rose from the dead and there is nothing metaphorical about that.

Yes, that is exactly what "metaphorical" means. Something that isn't really what's being spoken of that depicts something else.

Definition: a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable.

You can't "rise" from a higher position (heaven) to a lower position (earth) without it being metaphorical.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I may be wrong here, but the only time the books are ever mentioned is in connection with live beings--even live "dead" beings (see Rev 20:12). The live "dead" beings had been raised for judgment. Thus, it seems like the books determine if the beings get to remain alive or have to "die" (sometimes "die again"). I think this makes sense for Moses use of the term "your book" (Ex 32:32).

I am not sure it matters whether the books are only mentioned in connection with living beings.
The records in the books are not destroyed with the death of the person whose deeds are recorded.
The important thing is that there is a recording of each person that remembers that person.

Thus I don't think the books are used for remembrance of physical or mental or emotional characteristics, but likely for deeds ("books were opened") and whatever is required to remain alive ("another book"), like in your Mal 3:16 reference.

You seem to be making a distinction between recording data (deeds) and meta-data (characteristics).
The physical characteristics are not important, since we will be raised in new bodies that will be like the angels (Mark 12:25).
God knows our works and our thoughts (Isaiah 66:18), so I don't see a problem with both being written in the books that are being used to judge.
So, to continue that idea, if our identity is formed from our memories of our thoughts and deeds, then what is written in those books might be used to re-create our identities in the resurrection.

And I am curious what kind of "books" these are. Metaphorical, angelic, scrolls, computer files, or what? Moses' reference seemed like it was to a metaphorical thing. In a book God had written was Moses' name, and the blotting out of it would suggest his death. Does God need such a book? Doesn't He remember? or is it for other beings to use for judgment?

I vote for metaphorical books.
The "books" mentioned are as much like physical books as the "throne" of God is like a physical throne and the "hand" of God is like a person's hand.
The words used describe that can be understood by us in place of whatever non-physical thing the word is representing.
It is easier for us to understand the concept of the chronicles of a kingdom with the people and events that happen in the kingdom being written down on scrolls (as described in Esther 10:2) than it is for us to understand the things that are called "books" in heaven.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So do you deny that the Greek word pneuma means "a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon)?

For a Greek writer writing to a Greek audience, that definition could be used.
However, your reference is to a Hebrew Christian writing to a Hebrew Christian audience about the events and symbology from the Old Testament in such a way as to think from a Hebrew only viewpoint (ignoring all the Greek definitions that do not fit).

Where is your evidence? And if you are right then give me your meaning of the words "spirits of just men made perfect" in the following passage:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

Since the author of Hebrews spends so much time getting his audience to think about the Old Testament, the only definitions that should be used are the ones for the Hebrew word ruach, such as "the seat of moral character".
This would match up the "spirits of righteous men" with the "cloud of witnesses" by comparing the moral character (spirits) of the saints with their deeds (cloud of witnesses).

 

[genuineoriginal]

I hope so, and of bad things people did to us. But that seems like it would eliminate such a large portion of our memories. Maybe, since God, who can't forget anything, won't "remember" our sins, it means they won't be held against us. Maybe, then, we won't remember our sins as something grievous, but something sufficiently paid for and settled, as a constant reminder of Jesus' love for us.

Maybe that's the idea behind Paul's warning in 1 Cor 3:15. Our bad deeds will not be remembered, and if there aren't a lot of good deeds, there might not be much to remember.

I can agree with that.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

For a Greek writer writing to a Greek audience, that definition could be used.
However, your reference is to a Hebrew Christian writing to a Hebrew Christian audience about the events and symbology from the Old Testament in such a way as to think from a Hebrew only viewpoint (ignoring all the Greek definitions that do not fit).


Since the author of Hebrews spends so much time getting his audience to think about the Old Testament, the only definitions that should be used are the ones for the Hebrew word ruach, such as "the seat of moral character".
This would match up the "spirits of righteous men" with the "cloud of witnesses" by comparing the moral character (spirits) of the saints with their deeds (cloud of witnesses).

That is not evidence that the Greek expert who I quoted is in error. You're going to have to do a lot better than that if you want to convince anyone that the definition I gave from Joseph Henry Thayer is in error.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is not evidence that the Greek expert who I quoted is in error.

It is evidence that your thinking is in error when it comes to Hebrews, since you are thinking with a Greek mindset instead of a Hebrew mindset.

 

[genuineoriginal]

That is not evidence that the Greek expert who I quoted is in error. You're going to have to do a lot better than that if you want to convince anyone that the definition I gave from Joseph Henry Thayer is in error.

It is evidence that your thinking is in error when it comes to Hebrews, since you are thinking with a Greek mindset instead of a Hebrew mindset.

[MENTION=8028]Jerry[/MENTION]_Shugart: Do you accept that the historical-grammatical method is the best method for understanding the Bible?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And both seem to be speaking of salvation of the person--which includes the body.

When the verse speaks of the salvation of the soul it means exactly that. Do you really think that when Peter told those who received his epistle that not only were their souls saved but also their bodies!

What would a physical body need to be saved from? How can believing the gospel save a person's physical body?

You fail to distinguish between the "inward" man and the "outward" man of which Paul speaks.

Peter speaks specifically of the salvation of the soul (the inward man) but in order to cling to your theory you say that Peter was telling them that not only were their souls saved but also their bodies!

That makes no sense.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

[MENTION=8028]Jerry[/MENTION]_Shugart: Do you accept that the historical-grammatical method is the best method for understanding the Bible?

What's your point?

 

[genuineoriginal]

What's your point?

"The aim of the historical-grammatical method is to discover the meaning of the passage as the original author would have intended and what the original hearers would have understood. ~Wikipedia"​

You are interpreting the verse in a way that is different than the original author would have intended and different to what the original hearers would have understood.

 

[Derf]

When the verse speaks of the salvation of the soul it means exactly that. Do you really think that when Peter told those who received his epistle that not only were their souls saved but also their bodies!

What would a physical body need to be saved from? How can believing the gospel save a person's physical body?

You fail to distinguish between the "inward" man and the "outward" man of which Paul speaks.

Peter speaks specifically of the salvation of the soul (the inward man) but in order to cling to your theory you say that Peter was telling them that not only were their souls saved but also their bodies!

That makes no sense.

You fail to see how important the resurrection was to the authors of the Bible.

 

[God's Truth]

You're saying the same thing as Jerry. The new bodies will be spiritual, and their spirits are already in heaven. So what is being "raised" from the earth?

A spiritual body would be a body that does not die. There might be other changes too such as not needing clothes.


Matthew 6:28
And why do you worry about clothes? Consider how the lilies of the field grow: They do not labor or spin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You fail to see how important the resurrection was to the authors of the Bible.

You fail to understand the difference between the inward man and the outward man and that is the source of your error. And that is why you did not even attempt to answer the points which I made.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You are interpreting the verse in a way that is different than the original author would have intended and different to what the original hearers would have understood.

Prove it.

While you are at it please tell me your meaning of what is in "bold" in the following passage:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

 

[genuineoriginal]

Prove it.

While you are at it please tell me your meaning of what is in "bold" in the following passage:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

I did all that, here it is again:

For a Greek writer writing to a Greek audience, that definition could be used.
However, your reference is to a Hebrew Christian writing to a Hebrew Christian audience about the events and symbology from the Old Testament in such a way as to think from a Hebrew only viewpoint (ignoring all the Greek definitions that do not fit).


Since the author of Hebrews spends so much time getting his audience to think about the Old Testament, the only definitions that should be used are the ones for the Hebrew word ruach, such as "the seat of moral character".
This would match up the "spirits of righteous men" with the "cloud of witnesses" by comparing the moral character (spirits) of the saints with their deeds (cloud of witnesses).

Stop trying to interpret "spirits" from the verse as if the word had a pagan Greek definition and replace it with a Hebrew definition, since this is a letter to the Hebrews and is full of references from the Old Testament and Hebrew thoughts, not Greek thoughts.

 

[Derf]

A spiritual body would be a body that does not die. There might be other changes too such as not needing clothes.


Matthew 6:28
And why do you worry about clothes? Consider how the lilies of the field grow: They do not labor or spin.

You didn't answer the question. I understand your take on the spiritualness of the body, and that you think spirit cannot die. I question that, because if God wanted something, even spirit, to be completely destroyed, I believe He could do it. And there is a "second death" that seems to apply to raised bodies, of whatever form they are, so they must be able to die that second death, Rev 20:14-15.

Rev 20 speaks of people being raised from the dead, some of which are cast into the lake of fire. What do you think those people consist of at that time? Are they just spirit, since they don't have immortal bodies yet? Or do you think they have immortal bodies?

And back to the question I asked. For believers, if the body is completely new and from heaven (and spiritual) and the spirit which has been in heaven however many years is united with that body, what part of that person is being "raised" in 1 Cor 15:35? Is the term just a metaphor for uniting spirit with body?