God's Truth
New member
Right; now do you really think I haven't proven it with all those scriptures I gave through out this thread and the argument I gave for it?
Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?
- Thread starter MarcATL
- Start date
Right; now do you really think I haven't proven it with all those scriptures I gave through out this thread and the argument I gave for it?
Derf
Well-known member
When is/was "today" in God's time?
Jesus was in the grave for three days. There is lots of conjecture on what was happening to Him during that time, but "today" for the thief might not even have been "today" for Jesus. Jesus was talking in terms of the thief's concept of time, possibly, and if the thief were to cease being aware of anything when he died, then it would still be "today" for him no matter how many thousands of years had transpired in between.
That's just a suggestion.
And I assume you're using the trinity to say that the thief was with the Father, since the Father and Son are one. That could be, but the Father wasn't on the cross next to the thief, was He? The Father wasn't in the water with Jesus at the baptism, was He? The Spirit didn't even descend until Jesus left the water--He stayed dry. Thus to suggest because a passage talks of the three persons of the Godhead doesn't mean that the thief was where the Father was after he died. Rather, your passage illustrates that Jesus might very well have been somewhere else besides where the Father was, since at the baptism the Father's voice came "from heaven" and not from Jesus' mouth.
Maybe I misunderstood your point. Sometimes you have to spell things out for me.
Derf
Well-known member
I think you did a good job of pulling many of the pertinent scriptures together, and you provided some commentary of your own to tie them together some (which is sorely lacking in so many posts around here). I was hoping to go through some of those with you, but haven't had much time (which is sorely lacking in my schedule) to look at them. Several of the ones you posted could easily be taken another way than what you were thinking.
Derf
Well-known member
What is being "raised"? If the new bodies are from heaven, if the old bodies have turned to dust, if the spirits are in heaven, what is there left to "raise"? You said "they will be raised"--what part of a person still needs to be "raised" at that point?
God's Truth
New member
You must really be drawn to this topic too, because you have taken over this thread in a great way. This thread would have gone dead if it were not for you. The author of this thread has stepped out and not returned and given the posters here any acknowledgment for their efforts. I really do hope that you find the time to address all the points I made in this thread. I have been debating for many years and see how someone can take a scripture and make it say something else. I have also seen people who cannot take some scriptures and do that. Too bad that that 'one' scripture they cannot explain is rejected.
I will post my last argument for the life of the spirit; but, I will still engage in discussions; it will just be my last proof.
God's Truth
New member
New physical bodies will be raised.
Jesus brings the spirits that were in heaven with him, he brings them to earth and they rise up with new bodies.
Derf
Well-known member
The topic definitely interests me. You might remember that I started a thread on what death and resurrection really are, but I couldn't keep it going too long (I guess it's still open, but I haven't looked at it in awhile).
Part of the reason I'm interested is that I grew up with the teaching just as you laid it out. I still think it is a reasonable way to look at it, but I'm having trouble with some aspects of it, and I was curious to see if I could defend the other point of view. When I look at it that way, the number of solid proof texts for your side shrinks considerably, and some don't line up with other scriptures. The "sleep" references, found throughout the bible, might just be referring to the dead physical body, but the Samuel passage really made me question it.
On the other hand, the out of body experiences (especially Paul's and John's, and maybe some of the Old Testament prophets, as well as folks today, give me some pause. I'd like to hear more about yours sometime, if you care to tell it.
God's Truth
New member
Those righteous of the Old Testament still waited for the day Jesus came and died for the world.
No one was made perfect until Jesus came and died.
Faith in Jesus' blood makes those belonging to God perfect, even those who died before Jesus’ ministry on earth; however, they still had to wait till Jesus' blood was shed. The Old Testament righteous people who died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1).
Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."
God's grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40).
The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from above. Paul says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..." Jesus also tells us Abraham waited to see his day, Abraham saw it and was glad (John 8:56). Abraham died, yet was alive in the spirit.
There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous.
After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.
THAT is SCRIPTURE. That is the WORD OF GOD. Jesus died FOR ALL. That includes the people who DIED BEFORE HE CAME.
Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).
These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body. Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the righteous live in heaven. These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.
Rejoice at Jesus saving us, and rejoice at knowing without a doubt that the Word of God tells us we have spirits that live on.
No one was made perfect until Jesus came and died.
Faith in Jesus' blood makes those belonging to God perfect, even those who died before Jesus’ ministry on earth; however, they still had to wait till Jesus' blood was shed. The Old Testament righteous people who died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1).
Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."
God's grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40).
The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from above. Paul says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..." Jesus also tells us Abraham waited to see his day, Abraham saw it and was glad (John 8:56). Abraham died, yet was alive in the spirit.
There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous.
After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.
THAT is SCRIPTURE. That is the WORD OF GOD. Jesus died FOR ALL. That includes the people who DIED BEFORE HE CAME.
Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).
These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body. Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the righteous live in heaven. These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.
Rejoice at Jesus saving us, and rejoice at knowing without a doubt that the Word of God tells us we have spirits that live on.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
When a Chrstian dies physically his soul is separated from his physical body and his soul goes to heaven to be with the Lord. Then he is raised up from that state in a new body which is from heaven right before the living saints will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air:
"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess.4:16-17).
The dead in Christ will be raised up in new bodies which are from heaven and when that happens they are already in the air because they will descend with the Lord when He descends. Then the living saints will be caught up to meet the saints who are already in the air.
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God's Truth
New member
I will look into it. I have seen that there doesn't seem to be much interest from others here about it. I am not sure why. It interests me so very much. I have always been a more spiritual person. We are flesh and spirit. Some people are more about the flesh than the spirit.
I must say that I do not like that you said 'just as I laid it out'. I don't like that because I have gone deeper and with better explanation than anything found on the Internet. How much searching did I do on the Internet? Well I did enough, and don't think that your claim is true. I have given more insight to the truly interested, more than others.
But I can give a reason for all the scriptures, and it only takes one scripture. You cannot dismiss any scripture.
Thank you for being interested in such a deep and sincere way. I don't know if I would give any personal experiences here to the degree that would be necessary, though.
Derf
Well-known member
So, do you think Jesus creates new bodies out of dust to raise up to re-integrate their spirits with?
Is earth dust a good material for an incorruptible body?
If saints who are "alive and remain" are "changed" (I believe from corruptible to incorruptible bodies), then do the dead saints' bodies need to be re-formed from dust only to be changed into something incorruptible afterward, so that the spirits can be joined to the new and improved bodies? Seems like a waste of effort. And surely God wouldn't join the spirit to the old type of body, newly remade out of dust, just to then turn around and change it into something corruptible.
God's Truth
New member
The Bible says are new bodies will be spiritual.
The reason it will be done on earth is not because Jesus needs the 'dust' of the earth.
The reason is because Jesus is coming back here and there will be many people living on earth and it is just the way it is.
Derf
Well-known member
you keep saying the dead are raised, but both their body and spirit are coming from heaven. what is being raised?
Derf
Well-known member
You're saying the same thing as Jerry. The new bodies will be spiritual, and their spirits are already in heaven. So what is being "raised" from the earth?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
A "soul" is being raised from a state of being dead physically and therefore separated from his physical body into a state of having a body described as being a spiritual body (1 Cor.15:44).
One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "spirit" is "a human soul that has left the body" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon). And that is exactly what is being referred to in the following passage:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).
The reference to the "spirits of just men" is to the souls of Christians who have already died physically and are in heaven now without a body.
genuineoriginal
New member
That is how I understand it.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I just can't believe your understanding of this and let me tell you why.
One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "spirit" is "a human soul that has left the body" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon). And that is exactly what is being referred to in the following passage:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).
The reference to the "spirits of just men" who are in heaven now is to the souls of Christians who have already died physically and are in heaven now without a body.
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes, if the person is completely gone, then the only thing left would be God's remembrance of them.
Believers have their names written in a special book.
Malachi 3:16 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. |
And there are other books that are used for the memory.
Revelation 20:12 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. |
What about the defects in us that God says He will not remember, will we be resurrected with no memory of our sins?
Jeremiah 31:34 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. |
genuineoriginal
New member
That definition comes from pagan Greek Philosophy and not from the Bible.
That belief is a corruption that entered into Christianity after Paul was no longer alive to dispute it.
It entered into Christianity along with the tales of Hades torturing souls in Tartarus being changed into the Devil torturing souls in Hell.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
So do you deny that the Greek word pneuma means "a simple essence, devoid of all or at least all grosser matter, and possessed of the power of knowing, desiring, deciding, and acting" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon)?
Where is your evidence? And if you are right then give me your meaning of the words "spirits of just men made perfect" in the following passage:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).