Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[Derf]

You fail to understand the difference between the inward man and the outward man and that is the source of your error. And that is why you did not even attempt to answer the points which I made.

These points?:
What would a physical body need to be saved from? How can believing the gospel save a person's physical body?

I did answer them, by pointing you to the fact that the bible speaks volumes about resurrection from the dead, about persons being "raised" from the dead, about Jesus Christ's resurrection in a body that still had scars from the crucifixion (in another thread).

A physical body needs to be saved from death. And that believing the gospel can do that is the the whole point of the gospel--the whole point of our faith in Jesus Christ. Without that fact, we "believers" have no hope--our faith is vain.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: [1Co 15:16 KJV]
And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. [1Co 15:17 KJV]
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [1Co 15:18 KJV]

And that's what leads me to conclude that our spirits' being in heaven without bodies is not what the bible speaks of. I'm still thinking through it, but the gospel doesn't really make sense without it.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I did all that, here it is again:

You might have answered someone else about it but not me. Again, what meaning do you put on what is said in "bold" in the following passage:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).

The author tells them that they are come unto the heavenly Jerusalem and to the spirits of just men made perfect which are also in heaven. What meaning do you put on the words "the spirits of just men"?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A physical body needs to be saved from death.

So you think that our physical bodies are going to be saved despite the fact that they will turn to dust?

Please tell me what you think is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body which Paul speaks of at 1 Corinthians 15:44.

And tell me what kind of body do the men spoken of in the following verse possess:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

Thanks!

 

[Derf]

So you think that our physical bodies are going to be saved despite the fact that they will turn to dust?

Yes, that is exactly what "resurrection" means! That is exactly what Job was saying in Job 19:26!

And after my skin is destroyed, this [I know], That in my flesh I shall see God, [Job 19:26 NKJV]

Please tell me what you think is the difference between a natural body and a spiritual body which Paul speaks of at 1 Corinthians 15:44.

And tell me what kind of body do the men spoken of in the following verse possess:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

Thanks!

What is a man? If you can't define a man without resorting to physical characteristics, then you have to have those characteristics to have a man. A "perfect" man, could not be "perfect" without having those characteristics of a man.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You might have answered someone else about it but not me.

Are you daft?
Follow the links, I was answering you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, that is exactly what "resurrection" means! That is exactly what Job was saying in Job 19:26!

And after my skin is destroyed, this [I know], That in my flesh I shall see God, [Job 19:26 NKJV]

So will Job be in a natural body or a spiritual body in the future? Will you tell me what you think is the difference between a spiritual body and a natural body?

What is a man? If you can't define a man without resorting to physical characteristics, then you have to have those characteristics to have a man. A "perfect" man, could not be "perfect" without having those characteristics of a man.

Then why would Paul speak of the "inward man" as opposed to the "outward man"?

And tell me what kind of body do the men spoken of in the following verse possess:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Are you daft?
Follow the links, I was answering you.

All you said about the "spirits of just men made perfect" was that the Greek word translated "spirits" does not mean "souls."

But you didn't address what the words "spirits of just men made perfect" are referring to.

 

[Derf]

So will Job be in a natural body or a spiritual body in the future? Will you tell me what you think is the difference between a spiritual body and a natural body?



Then why would Paul speak of the "inward man" as opposed to the "outward man"?

And tell me what kind of body do the men spoken of in the following verse possess:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

Job said "in my flesh". That flesh will be raised an incorruptible body.

 

[genuineoriginal]

All you said about the "spirits of just men made perfect" was that the Greek word translated "spirits" does not mean "souls."

But you didn't address what the words "spirits of just men made perfect" are referring to.

You must have stopped reading before you got to these lines:

Since the author of Hebrews spends so much time getting his audience to think about the Old Testament, the only definitions that should be used are the ones for the Hebrew word ruach, such as "the seat of moral character".
This would match up the "spirits of righteous men" with the "cloud of witnesses" by comparing the moral character (spirits) of the saints with their deeds (cloud of witnesses).

The "spirits of righteous men" is their "moral character" (Definition from Hebrew word "ruach")

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Job said "in my flesh". That flesh will be raised an incorruptible body.

So will he be raised in a "natural" body or a "spiritual" body? And in your opinion what is the difference between the two bodies?

And tell me what kind of body do the men spoken of in the following verse possess:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "spirits of righteous men" is their "moral character"

So when we read what is in "bold" in the following passage we can understand that the reference is to the moral character of these people who are in the heavenly Jerusalem?:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

What kind of bodies do these people have while they are in the heavenly Jerusalem?

 

[God's Truth]

You didn't answer the question.

I did answer the question.

I understand your take on the spiritualness of the body,

The spiritualness of the body? You mean of the new body right?

and that you think spirit cannot die.

The spirit cannot die.

I question that, because if God wanted something, even spirit, to be completely destroyed, I believe He could do it.

Destroyed doesn't always mean 'nonexistence'.

Drugs and alcohol can destroy someone's life while they still live.

Adultery can destroy someone's life while they still live.

Crime can destroy someone's life while they live in prison.

And there is a "second death" that seems to apply to raised bodies,

Our raised bodies will be spiritual in nature in that they will not be able to die.

of whatever form they are, so they must be able to die that second death, Rev 20:14-15.

The second 'death' is suffering WITH your body in the lake of fire.

Rev 20 speaks of people being raised from the dead, some of which are cast into the lake of fire. What do you think those people consist of at that time? Are they just spirit, since they don't have immortal bodies yet? Or do you think they have immortal bodies?

The saved and unsaved will be raised with immortal bodies.

'DEATH' will be thrown in the lake of fire.

Since no one will be able to die, the wicked will suffer forever in the lake of fire.

And back to the question I asked. For believers, if the body is completely new and from heaven (and spiritual) and the spirit which has been in heaven however many years is united with that body, what part of that person is being "raised" in 1 Cor 15:35? Is the term just a metaphor for uniting spirit with body?

The spirit of the person will be raised with a physical body that is spiritual in nature.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So when we read what is in "bold" in the following passage we can understand that the reference is to the moral character of these people who are in the heavenly Jerusalem?:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

What kind of bodies do these people have while they are in the heavenly Jerusalem?

Not quite. It refers to the accounts of demonstrations of moral character as recorded in Hebrews 11, not to the people themselves.
They have no bodies, just like the cloud of witnesses (of deeds, not ghosts) have no conscience and no bodies, the moral character of the righteous men has no conscience and no bodies.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not quite. It refers to the accounts of demonstrations of moral character as recorded in Hebrews 11, not to the people themselves.
They have no bodies, just like the cloud of witnesses (of deeds, not ghosts) have no conscience and no bodies, the moral character of the righteous men has no conscience and no bodies.

So the words are only referring to a coming to the moral character of people and the people themselves are not in view?

That's about the strangest thing I have ever heard.

And what about them coming to the church of the firstborn?

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).

An empty church?

 

[genuineoriginal]

So the words are only referring to a coming to the moral character of people and the people themselves are not in view?

That's about the strangest thing I have ever heard.

And what about them coming to the church of the firstborn?

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).

An empty church?

Are you part of the entire church/assembly of believers, or are you all alone in your faith?
If you are part of the entire church (from the disciples of Jesus through to all the Christians you encounter in your daily life), then you have already come to the general assembly and church of the firstborn.
If you haven't already come to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, you are all alone in your faith or lack thereof.

In the same manner, if your moral character (spirit) is like those that were written about in Hebrews 11, then you have already come to the spirits (moral characters) of righteous men made perfect.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

If you are part of the entire church (from the disciples of Jesus through to all the Christians you encounter in your daily life), then you have already come to the general assembly and church of the firstborn.

So the moral character of a believer is in heaven even though he isn't there?

 

[genuineoriginal]

So the moral character of a believer is in heaven even though he isn't there?

You seem to have miss-read the passage.

Hebrews 12:22-24 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.​

Now look around yourself and see if you are standing/sitting in the city described here:

Revelation 21:10-21 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You seem to have miss-read the passage.

I need you to answer my question so that at least I can have some kind of clue as to what you are thinking.

 

[genuineoriginal]

So the moral character of a believer is in heaven even though he isn't there?

You seem to have miss-read the passage.

I need you to answer my question so that at least I can have some kind of clue as to what you are thinking.

The passage does not say the "the spirits of just men made perfect" are in heaven.
Nor does the passage say "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" are in heaven, though it does say that they are "written in heaven".

Your mistake is in thinking "ye are come unto mount Sion" means that you are now in heaven and the rest of the passage is describing what you are now seeing in heaven.
"The spirits of just men made perfect" are not in heaven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The passage does not say the "the spirits of just men made perfect" are in heaven.

If you will examine the passage you will see that the spirits of just men is indeed in heaven:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

If there are no spirits of just men in heaven then why did the author of Hebrews tell them to come to those spirits? We can see that the author also tells them to come to God the Judge of all.

According to the way that you are reading these verses we must believe that God is not in the heavenly Jerusalem either.