Well, I don’t know if that is true or not. I recall Paul writing that he was blameless in matters of the law.
What is your opinion on proper giving for the couple in post 3?
What is the appropriate level of giving for retired people?
- Thread starter 2003cobra
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Well, I don’t know if that is true or not. I recall Paul writing that he was blameless in matters of the law.
What is your opinion on proper giving for the couple in post 3?
Right Divider
Body part
This command was issued well before they got to the land of Israel.
No, the passage that I quoted also included circumcision and "one law".
Indeed, it is. Over and out.
Yes, it says those eating the Passover must be circumcised. Go back a few verses and you will see a more complete picture:
The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “These are the regulations for the Passover meal: “No foreigner may eat it. 44 Any slave you have bought may eat it after you have circumcised him, 45 but a temporary resident or a hired worker may not eat it. 46 “It must be eaten inside the house; take none of the meat outside the house. Do not break any of the bones. 47 The whole community of Israel must celebrate it. 48 “A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it. 49 The same law applies both to the native-born and to the foreigner residing among you.”
So what about the couple in post 3. What are the relevant factors and considerations?
Do you think just his income is relevant, or is the growth in net worth an important consideration?
Right Divider
Body part
Neither of those has any bearing on free will giving as they purpose in their hearts.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Abraham tithed but he was not under the law.
Where did he learn to tithe?
The truth about tithing came before the law.
Abraham was a Gentile, not an Israelite
Tithing is what believers do, they believe as the father of all them that believe, they do the tithe.
Believers purpose in their heart to tithe, for Abraham the father of all those who believe tithed.
That is not the law of Moses, it is a righteous act of believing
oatmeal
Well-known member
Yes, that is how it would make sense
Especially so, if your income before you decided to put some away for a retirement fund had already been tithed from.
There is no need to tithe from money you have already tithed from, however, any increase from that fund could be tithed from
oatmeal
Well-known member
You, Right Divider, fail to rightly divide the word of truth, for Abraham tithed previous to the giving of the law of Moses.
For that matter, (even though the percentage is not stated) Cain and Abel gave, but Cain's heart was wrong, Abel's was not.
Are you suggesting that because the law says to not commit adultery, and we are no longer under the law that it is now fine with God to now commit adultery?
How serving idols? Is it now ok to serve false gods because we are now not under the law?
what you need to do is read the context of the phrase "no longer under the law" or such similar phrases.
For instance,
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Romans 4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Romans 4:14
For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Does sin still exist?
Is it still possible to be tempted to sin?
How do we know what is right and what is wrong?
Our righteousness no longer comes from doing the law, actually it is not available that righteousness come by the law.
We are righteous because of what God did in Christ, then we received that, when we did Romans 10:9-10
We are not righteous by our own works, but by the works of Jesus Christ
oatmeal
Well-known member
Yes, that is right.
The tithe of our increase is available to give
That of course, does not have to be money, it could be time, talent, energy, service to others, if that is what we have been increased with.
The amount we have and the amount by which God has prospered us has no bearing?
I am reminded of this:
1 Corinthians 16:1-3New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
The Collection for the Saints
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints: you should follow the directions I gave to the churches of Galatia. 2 On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come. 3 And when I arrive, I will send any whom you approve with letters to take your gift to Jerusalem.
In the KJV:
1 Corinthians 16:1-3King James Version (KJV)
16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
So if God has prospered the couple with a growth of $200,000 in their stock accounts, giving them extra, is the amount of the prospering relevant?
I am also reminded of the obligation not to give everything away but to plan for the needs of family:
1 Timothy 5:7-9New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
7 Give these commands as well, so that they may be above reproach. 8 And whoever does not provide for relatives, and especially for family members, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
I agree with much of what you wrote, but I do ask a question about the specifics.
If I remember the story correctly, Abraham did not tithe of his goods. Didn’t he tithe of the spoils captured in the rescue of Lot, mostly stolen goods, before returning the rest to their rightful owners?
Thank you.
With the stock market climbing so quickly in the recent years, I think that it is something that we need to consider.
Also, the benefit of giving appreciated stock rather than cash is a way to do more for the Kingdom of God.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Prove that from scripture
oatmeal
Well-known member
Abraham with his little army retrieved what was theirs.
Did he keep some of the spoils of this warfare?
The record does not indicate that. Genesis 14:11-24
Abraham retrieved what he had a right to retrieve.
Melchizedek blessed Abraham, then Abraham tithed.
Abraham received then Abraham tithed.
Until we receive, we have nothing to give.
What we have received, we can give of.
Indeed, a little army, for the gematria of Eliezer, (אליעזר, "El is my help"), is 318. :chuckle:
Yes, Abraham kept nothing for himself, and he also gave nothing of his own (unless you view that he owned the stolen goods that he had recaptured).
Then the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have sworn to the Lord, God Most High, maker of heaven and earth, 23 that I would not take a thread or a sandal-thong or anything that is yours, so that you might not say, "I have made Abram rich.' 24 I will take nothing but what the young men have eaten, and the share of the men who went with me—Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre. Let them take their share."
Back on the topic of the couple, do you think a tenth should be the default position? I view it as a floor.
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Daqq, what is your opinion on the appropriate level of giving for the couple in post 3?
Yeah, I did not mean what I said to derail, but wanted to state it as the simple fact that it is, pertaining to what Oatmeal had said, because it concerns circumcision, (which was already brought up earlier up by someone else, and shot down as off-topic by you, and rightly so, (but now it is there for future reference if that topic comes up again and you allow it)).
But as for mammon will you give some of your mammon to Elohim? Where in the Tanach or Old Testament does it say to give some of your mammon to a church or congregation? So I suppose it depends who you plan to give your mammon to, for there are good things you could do with your mammon, and bad things you could do with your mammon: but what about, "Sell all that you have and follow Messiah", do you suppose that statement only pertains to mammon? I suggest to you that it does not necessarily mean that but because the rich young man was only able to see it in that manner he was dejected and went away. In those times buying and selling was more like "going to market" and bartering: the fisherman would trade some fish for some wheat, flour, or maybe bread from the farmer, because each one had his own occupation. The fisherman did not have a farm and the farmer did not have a sea galley or fishing boat operation.
The Master says to us all, (not just Laodicea), "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, so that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye-salve, that you may see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
How are you going to purchase gold tried in the fire from the Master? What do you really have that is critical and meaningful in the kingdom of Elohim? Will he accept your mammon? or the persons of men? You have some doctrines that are dear to you; but if they do not agree with the Word, and yet you do not trade them in for the true pure gold, then even what you think to have will be taken from you in the long run, (it is surely the same for us all). Therefore I say, trade off all that you have and take up your stake and follow the Word.
glorydaz
Well-known member
No, you're trying to get him to go running back to the law like you do.
You see what I meant Cobra?
That other topic probably is not going to remain buried for long. :chuckle:
But I think I will bow out for a while having said what I have.
Right Divider
Body part
This was a SPECIFIC collection to help a SPECIFIC group of people at a SPECIFIC time for a SPECIFIC need.
Your question seemed to be about GENERAL giving.
I did NOT says that you should not take OTHER things into account when you PURPOSE IN YOUR HEART what to give freely.