What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
The light of glory might be "projected" as clothing, but I think you have to stretch the scriptures a bit for any proof of it. We don't know where He got His clothing after the resurrection. I can imagine that His father made Him a coat of many colors, perhaps, since He loves Him so.

That's something I want to be careful about in this thread--using our already built-up theology to answer questions about death and resurrection instead of trying to find the answers directly in scripture.

Thanks,
Derf

Yes there's few scriptures to go on when dealing with certain issues, that's why I wanted to show you all that other stuff because it's like putting a jigsaw together when you don't have the box lid to go by and it seems there are pieces missing too. By using as much of the verses as possible to complete the parts of the picture that we can complete then it makes it easier to see what left and how they fit together.

So understanding the 7000 year plan of God and how His Millennial reign fits into all of this is key to fitting all the other scripture in, where they belong. From there we can then extrapolate the 'missing' bits.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Yes there's few scriptures to go on when dealing with certain issues, that's why I wanted to show you all that other stuff because it's like putting a jigsaw together when you don't have the box lid to go by and it seems there are pieces missing too. By using as much of the verses as possible to complete the parts of the picture that we can complete then it makes it easier to see what left and how they fit together.

So understanding the 7000 year plan of God and how His Millennial reign fits into all of this is key to fitting all the other scripture in, where they belong. From there we can then extrapolate the 'missing' bits.

If you think it applies to the "death" and "resurrection" discussion, then please spell it out for me, using your own words. This does two things--it keeps the conversation personal, and it gives you a chance to explain it, cementing in your mind, if you don't start seeing logical pitfalls. God's Truth is a bit of a pest sometimes, but she was right to ask this of you.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Sorry,I forgot. But he didn't die physically in that day or on that day.

Sure he did, if you don't read into the scriptures your own meaning.

And here (in the spoiler) are some other things that make little sense if they only happen in a single day. Yet your definition would enforce such a reading. What I'd like you to do is append the words "but only for 24 hours" to the end of each of these verses. See how much sense each makes.

Spoiler
And I will sever in that day the land of Goshen, in which my people dwell, that no swarms [of flies] shall be there; to the end thou mayest know that I [am] the LORD in the midst of the earth. [Exo 8:22 KJV]
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. [Deut 1:39 KJV]
Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? [Deut 31:17 KJV]
And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods. [Deut 31:18 KJV]
In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made [each one] for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; [Isa 2:20 KJV]
And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. [Isa 4:1 KJV]
In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth [shall be] excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. [Isa 4:2 KJV]
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep; [Isa 7:21 KJV]
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] every place shall be, where there were a thousand vines at a thousand silverlings, it shall [even] be for briers and thorns. [Isa 7:23 KJV]
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. [Isa 10:20 KJV]
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] his burden shall be taken away from off thy shoulder, and his yoke from off thy neck, and the yoke shall be destroyed because of the anointing. [Isa 10:27 KJV]
And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. [Isa 11:10 KJV]
And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. [Isa 12:1 KJV]
And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. [Isa 12:4 KJV]
And in that day it shall come to pass, [that] the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean. [Isa 17:4 KJV]
In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation. [Isa 17:9 KJV]
In that day shall Egypt be like unto women: and it shall be afraid and fear because of the shaking of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which he shaketh over it. [Isa 19:16 KJV]
In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction. [Isa 19:18 KJV]
In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD. [Isa 19:19 KJV]
And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform [it]. [Isa 19:21 KJV]
In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. [Isa 19:23 KJV]
In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall the nail that is fastened in the sure place be removed, and be cut down, and fall; and the burden that [was] upon it shall be cut off: for the LORD hath spoken [it]. [Isa 22:25 KJV]
And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this [is] our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this [is] the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation. [Isa 25:9 KJV]
In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will [God] appoint [for] walls and bulwarks. [Isa 26:1 KJV]
In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people, [Isa 28:5 KJV]
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
If you think it applies to the "death" and "resurrection" discussion, then please spell it out for me, using your own words. This does two things--it keeps the conversation personal, and it gives you a chance to explain it, cementing in your mind, if you don't start seeing logical pitfalls. God's Truth is a bit of a pest sometimes, but she was right to ask this of you.

Oh Derf this is such a big subject to explain. I am currently discussing much of the back ground information to this subject (which might help you to understand where I'm coming from) with ttruscott here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127341-pre-existence/page2

Please feel free to read it. I think you might find it interesting and I would hope that it could add to your theological 'jigsaw puzzle picture' regarding death and resurrection.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Oh Derf this is such a big subject to explain. I am currently discussing much of the back ground information to this subject (which might help you to understand where I'm coming from) with ttruscott here:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?127341-pre-existence/page2

Please feel free to read it. I think you might find it interesting and I would hope that it could add to your theological 'jigsaw puzzle picture' regarding death and resurrection.

I think I just wasted 15 minutes on that thread which I can never get back.

You've taken a supposition and tried to cram it into the creation story, but you can tell it doesn't make sense, so you have to allegorize everything.

Does this not answer the whole pre-existence thing:
Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [1Co 15:46 KJV]

And, if you say that the dead are returned to the state that they were in before they were made flesh, then they must have started out dead. And thus, it is not appointed unto man to die once, but multiple times, in your view.

But let's just say, for argument's sake, that man pre-existed his creation as a spiritual (and sinful, apparently) being. How do you think that reflects on the post-physical existence of man?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Sure he did, if you don't read into the scriptures your own meaning.

He didn't die physically that day. He died in the same way that Paul speaks of here:

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph.2:1).​

Paul is addressing people who are physically alive but he speaks of them as being "dead" previous to the time when they were quickened.

It is IMPOSSIBLE that the "death" spoken of in that verse is referring to a physical death.

Or perhaps you want to argue that they all died physically and then they were reincarnated?

Now please allow me to ask you a simple question. What "death" do you think that Paul makes reference to at Ephesians 2:1?
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
I think I just wasted 15 minutes on that thread which I can never get back.

You've taken a supposition and tried to cram it into the creation story, but you can tell it doesn't make sense, so you have to allegorize everything.

Does this not answer the whole pre-existence thing:
Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. [1Co 15:46 KJV]

And, if you say that the dead are returned to the state that they were in before they were made flesh, then they must have started out dead. And thus, it is not appointed unto man to die once, but multiple times, in your view.

But let's just say, for argument's sake, that man pre-existed his creation as a spiritual (and sinful, apparently) being. How do you think that reflects on the post-physical existence of man?

I'm glad you read it and are thinking and prepared to discuss all this. To understand all this and more you must deal with the main stream Christian view on Hebrews 9:27.

Most Christian's know that traditionally Christian teaching say's there is no such thing as reincarnation and indeed Christian's often use the only verse in the entire Bible that seems to 'prove' reincarnation is not real, Hebrews 9:27. Unfortunately this is because of a general mistranslation and a misunderstood verse and chapter. Here is the direct original Greek translation from the Interlinear Bible.

Hebrews 9:27
And down to which, a which it situateth off, unto the ones, unto mankind, to once to have had died off, with moreover to the one, this a separating.

Notice that it say's mankind, most translations however instead say 'man'. The Weymouth New Testament translation has about the closest match to the original wording:

Hebrews 9:27
And since it is reserved for all mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged.

It's clear is that the writer throughout chapter nine uses the word mankind rather than just the word 'man'. Chapter nine is about the broader picture of God's plan for mankind and how Jesus only had to die once for mankind’s redemption, unlike the repeated mosaic sacrificial system. This was an important question at the time for the new Jewish Christian's. The writer then explains similarly that mankind will also die once and then face a final judgement. The writer does not suddenly change from talking about the larger picture of God's plan for mankind, to then just focusing on each individual's person's death. Instead he is actually talking about the final judgement that John writes about in chapter twenty of Revelation:

Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne, and One who was seated on it [God], from whose presence earth, and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing in front of the throne. And books were opened; and so was another book, namely the Book of Life; and the dead were judged by the things recorded in the books in accordance with what their conduct had been. Then the sea yielded up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades yielded up the dead who were in them, and each man was judged in accordance with what his conduct had been. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire; this is the Second Death, the Lake of fire. And if any one's name was not found recorded in the Book of Life he was thrown into the Lake of fire.

It is true of course that each individual is judged at their death as to whether they had faith in Jesus as there saviour, which determines if they go to Heaven or Hell but the judgement for the rewards are not done till the final judgement after the millennial reign of Christ. There is a partial reward for the 144,000 at the second coming of Christ, when they receive their resurrected bodies a thousand years before the great multitude get their resurrected bodies at the second resurrection:

Revelations 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.[The twenty four elders] And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus, and because of the word of God. [The 144,000] They had not worshipped the beast [The Anti-Christ] or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. [The great multitude]) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection [The 144,000]. The second death [The lake of fire] has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Throughout history Christian sects have sprung up with the truth that reincarnation is real, such as the Gnostics, Sethian, Valentinus, and Cather's for example but all were eventually squashed and killed off as heretic’s, mainly by the Catholic church. Such as in 1209 when they in-sighted crusader's to burn hundred's of Cather's alive at Montsegur, near Toulouse, in the south of France. Indeed, reincarnation is taught in the Jewish tradition's and this verse is often sited as alluding to reincarnation:

Job 33:29-30
“Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.

Jesus Himself and His disciples alluded to reincarnation a number of times too. For instance, Jesus stated that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist but he was not recognised and that Elijah would come again to restore all things, which John the Baptist clearly did not fulfil:

Mathew 17:10-13
The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

There are a number of other scriptures too where Jesus suggests or speaks about reincarnation:

Matthew 16:28
Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Some Christians say this is referring to the Transfiguration but Jesus did not come in His Kingdom at that time. Instead Jesus was stating that some of the disciples with Him would be alive when He returns in the power and majesty of His Kingdom at His second coming. This could only happen if they are reincarnated to be alive at the time of Jesus’ return. Here’s another time that Jesus referred to us having more than one life.

John 21:20-23
Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the disciple John, who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumour spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”

The only way John could be alive at Jesus' second coming is if he is reincarnated. The disciples also alluded to reincarnation when they suggested the man born blind may have sinned in a previous life:

John 9:2
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”

It’s perhaps also worth pointing out that there are two types of deaths:

Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

It explains here that death itself and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is like the Hell of Hell's. Death was one of the curses placed on man after the fall and it is this curse of our ‘first’ earthly type of death that we experience at the end of each life, which will be removed from those who enter into Heaven after the judgement, allowing those in Heaven and on the New Earth to live forever. Thus death will be destroyed in the lake of fire; which is the second and final type of death.

Beside these Biblical allusions there have been thousands of accounts of near death experiences throughout history, which point to an afterlife and equally, there numerous accounts from of people that have purported to have been reincarnated and lived before their current life too.

One estimate of how many Christians actually believe in reincarnation is about one in ten and it makes far more sense that we are reincarnated, as this way everyone would be given a fair chance to hear the message that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins. Otherwise all those who’d lived and died before Jesus came the first time, as well as all those who haven’t heard about Him since His resurrection; through no fault of their own, would be able to hear the Gospel and consider for themselves whether His message was true or not. Thus Jesus would be able to judge everyone equally on this basis. After all salvation and entry to heaven is only through Jesus:

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It would be just like a fair and just God to give us several lifetimes to give us as many chances as possible to turn to His Son, especially when He loves us so much that he gave His only Son to die for us. I believe we have all had many lives throughout history and that this created reality is part of a larger refining process, that will result in a perfect order when God the Father returns to renew Heaven and Earth after the Millennial Reign. The Millennial Reign will be when everyone who has yet to be saved will get another chance on Earth but this time with Jesus as their King who they will be able to see, this is when the great Multitude will be saved, and is why Jesus said:

John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The blessed are the 144,000 who will reign as Priests of God and Christ for the thousand years.
I also believe this revelation about reincarnation will be and is being revealed now in these end times, because for all intents and purposes, this will be our last life before Jesus returns because His return is so close. So even the misinterpretation of Hebrews is actually ‘quite’ true, in the sense that because most of us will die during the tribulation, most will face a judgement after our last earthly death in this current age.

Also, the reason I believe this revelation wasn’t allowed to be widely accepted before now; was to impress upon us, over the last two thousand years, the importance of making that critical choice, whether to believe in Jesus or not, without thinking that we may get another chance in another life. Consider the recent rise in the population of the Earth, it’s greater now than ever before, as if we’re all being gathered together for one last chance to hear about Jesus before He returns. Don’t you think?
 

Derf

Well-known member
He didn't die physically that day. He died in the same way that Paul speaks of here:

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph.2:1).​

Paul is addressing people who are physically alive but he speaks of them as being "dead" previous to the time when they were quickened.

It is IMPOSSIBLE that the "death" spoken of in that verse is referring to a physical death.

Or perhaps you want to argue that they all died physically and then they were reincarnated?

Now please allow me to ask you a simple question. What "death" do you think that Paul makes reference to at Ephesians 2:1?

"IMPOSSIBLE" is pretty strong. I gave you one way that he died on that day, and even if you don't agree, it is only "IMPOSSIBLE" because you don't agree. As long as that is the standard by which we judge truth, you will never be wrong, will you. Bully for you!

I'm not opposed to Eph 2:1 being some kind of spiritual death (and Adam's, too), but I'm asking the question to see if we have bought into a certain interpretation to try to explain something that is explainable in another way. There are ramifications of the "spiritual death" idea that we don't usually discuss.
[MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] gave another option that fits well with Eph 2:1: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-do-we-care&p=5135117&viewfull=1#post5135117

And what does it mean to be "dead in our tresspasses and sins"? Some say that means we are unable to do anything righteous--the "total depravity" plank of Calvinism.

Let's say that everybody is either born spiritually dead or dies spiritually the first time they sin. What then is the next death? Physical death, right? And what is after that? What is Rev 20:6,14 speaking of as the "second death"? If it's a physical death, why do they have to die twice? If it's a spiritual death, the same question applies, but with greater confusion--why does a dead spirit need to die?

Whatever that second death is, it is really the third death, according to you. Is that what you are arguing for?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Most Christian's know that traditionally Christian teaching say's there is no such thing as reincarnation and indeed Christian's often use the only verse in the entire Bible that seems to 'prove' reincarnation is not real, Hebrews 9:27.

When A christian dies he goes to be with the Lord Jesus in heaven. And he will remain there until the Lord descends from heaven and meets the living saints in the air.

That leaves no time for a Christian to be reincarnated.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I'm not opposed to Eph 2:1 being some kind of spiritual death (and Adam's, too), but I'm asking the question to see if we have bought into a certain interpretation to try to explain something that is explainable in another way. There are ramifications of the "spiritual death" idea that we don't usually discuss.

In the same verse Paul tells Christians who were dead previously that they have been made alive. And since it is the spirit which gives life (Jn.6:63) then common sense dicates that the life spoken of is spiritual life.

When a person sins then he dies spiritually and since all men have sinned and died spiritually (Ro.5:24) then that means all people were alive spiritually at one time or another. And the only way that is possible is that all emerge from the womb spiritually alive.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I'm glad you read it and are thinking and prepared to discuss all this. To understand all this and more you must deal with the main stream Christian view on Hebrews 9:27.

Most Christian's know that traditionally Christian teaching say's there is no such thing as reincarnation
This is untrue. All Christians believe in reincarnation, at least for believers. We usually call it "resurrection", just as Job said: And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: [Job 19:26 KJV].

But not "Reincarnation" where people come back as other people, animals, bugs, etc.

After all, whose flesh would Job be in when he sees God, if he has been reincarnated numerous times?

and indeed Christian's often use the only verse in the entire Bible that seems to 'prove' reincarnation is not real, Hebrews 9:27. Unfortunately this is because of a general mistranslation and a misunderstood verse and chapter. Here is the direct original Greek translation from the Interlinear Bible.

Hebrews 9:27
And down to which, a which it situateth off, unto the ones, unto mankind, to once to have had died off, with moreover to the one, this a separating.

Notice that it say's mankind, most translations however instead say 'man'. The Weymouth New Testament translation has about the closest match to the original wording:

Hebrews 9:27
And since it is reserved for all mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged.
You did all that just to give the same meaning as before? And you continue to come full circle back to a judgment for each individual, and thus a death for each individual. The bible does talk about a second death, which will harm only the unbelievers, in Rev 20:6,14. Are you also saying there are a bunch more deaths and the "second" death is not really a "second" death?
...

Don’t you think?
I think you have a hard time sticking to the topic. If you don't want to talk about the topic, please find another thread. You're all over the place trying to preach your doctrines. I'm glad you find your doctrines so exciting, but your first priority should be to see what God's word says rather than how to make God's word say what you want it to say.
 

Derf

Well-known member
In the same verse Paul tells Christians who were dead previously that they have been made alive. And since it is the spirit which gives life (Jn.6:63) then common sense dicates that the life spoken of is spiritual life.

When a person sins then he dies spiritually and since all men have sinned and died spiritually (Ro.5:24) then that means all people were alive spiritually at one time or another. And the only way that is possible is that all emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

I already allowed for that, if you had quoted the rest of my post:

Let's say that everybody is either born spiritually dead or dies spiritually the first time they sin. What then is the next death? Physical death, right? And what is after that? What is Rev 20:6,14 speaking of as the "second death"? If it's a physical death, why do they have to die twice? If it's a spiritual death, the same question applies, but with greater confusion--why does a dead spirit need to die?

Whatever that second death is, it is really the third death, according to you. Is that what you are arguing for?

Can you answer those questions? What is the "second death" if it is for unbelievers, then it can't be a second spiritual death, since their spirit was never made alive after it died the first time, else they would be believers. So it must be a physical death. But why would God raise someone from the dead, putting flesh on bones, just to kill them again???
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I already allowed for that, if you had quoted the rest of my post:

Are you saying that the "death" Ephesians 2:1 is referring to a physical death?

If your answer is "no" then what kind of death is Paul speaking of there?

I say that it is a "spiritual" death because it is a person's sin which separates him from the very source of spiritual life and that source is the LORD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.9:6).​

I am sure that I am right and there are numerous well-known and respected Bible scholars who agree with me. If you haven't seen that truth yet just keep searching and I am confident that eventually you will come to that conclusion.

Can you answer those questions? What is the "second death" if it is for unbelievers, then it can't be a second spiritual death, since their spirit was never made alive after it died the first time, else they would be believers. So it must be a physical death. But why would God raise someone from the dead, putting flesh on bones, just to kill them again???

I believe that the second death is in regard to a physical life. All of the unsaved will die physically and that is the first death. Then at resurrection of the unsaved they will be resurrected with a body. Then just like all of physical deaths, their souls will be separated from those bodies and that will be the second death.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Adam was always mortal because in order to live for ever he had to eat of the Tree of Life. If he was immortal there would have been no need to eat of that tree.

So then his fate (mortality - physical death) was sealed as of the day he ate from the forbidden tree. Right?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Are you saying that the "death" Ephesians 2:1 is referring to a physical death?
I'm saying it could be physical, but not realized. In other words, if Adam was "dead" with respect to his future--that his body was not going to live forever--then Eph 2:1 could be talking about the same thing--that we are made "alive" by being promised eternal life when we didn't have it before.

If your answer is "no" then what kind of death is Paul speaking of there?
N/A

I say that it is a "spiritual" death because it is a person's sin which separates him from the very source of spiritual life and that source is the LORD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear" (Isa.9:6).​
(You might want to check your reference.)
So you've defined "spiritual death" as being separated from God. I have two questions:
  • Was it possible for those in the old testament to be "born again" spiritually, before Jesus died? If not, then he was still "spiritually dead".
  • Then when David declares in Ps 139:8 that God is everywhere he goes, including in Sheol (when he is physically dead, and his body is no more), how is David separated from God?


I am sure that I am right and there are numerous well-known and respected Bible scholars who agree with me. If you haven't seen that truth yet just keep searching and I am confident that eventually you will come to that conclusion.
Perhaps. Like I said before, it is not unfamiliar to me. But is it ok to put it to the test? How would one do that? If we take the "spiritual death" assumption out of our minds momentarily, does it come back purely with reading the scriptures?


I believe that the second death is in regard to a physical life. All of the unsaved will die physically and that is the first death. Then at resurrection of the unsaved they will be resurrected with a body. Then just like all of physical deaths, their souls will be separated from those bodies and that will be the second death.
Thanks for answering that question, Jerry.

If physical death is the separation of the body from the soul, and the second death is just like it, why are there two of them? These were the "unsaved", as you said, so why do they need to be resurrected just to "kill" them again?

The other option for you, I think, is that the first-dead are resurrected physically to a second death that is NOT the same as the first, in which case can you tell me what is different between the two?
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

We know he certainly began the process of dying physically, because that was a part of the curse.

Gen. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

So when God told Adam he "would surely die", I assume Adam, at least, expected a physical death would occur. Did God ever mention they would be shut out of God's presence? :think: The idea of a spiritual death would, of necessity, be a separation from God's presence, correct? Would that be the "spiritual death" you're talking about?

Yet, Eve still gave credit to God for her sons, and Abel offered sacrifices to God.

And yet again, God still spoke to Cain for instance. Gen. 4:5
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I'm not opposed to Eph 2:1 being some kind of spiritual death (and Adam's, too), but I'm asking the question to see if we have bought into a certain interpretation to try to explain something that is explainable in another way. There are ramifications of the "spiritual death" idea that we don't usually discuss.

[MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] gave another option that fits well with Eph 2:1: http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-do-we-care&p=5135117&viewfull=1#post5135117

And what does it mean to be "dead in our tresspasses and sins"?​
Some say that means we are unable to do anything righteous--the "total depravity" plank of Calvinism.

I believe it speaks of condemnation, not "spiritual death", and certainly not total depravity. The law, either that given to Adam or that given to Moses, was the ministration of death, because it condemned men to death when they broke the law. 2 Corinthians 3:7

NOW there is no condemnation.....

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.​

The ministration of the law is being condemned to death. Death and Condemnation used interchangeably here as I read it.

2 Corinthians 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.​
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
I did a small study on this and believe Adam and Eve were not created immortal, like Jerry said, there would be no need for the tree of life. I think death in animals etc. was also before the fall. Adam and Eve knew what death was. In Hebrew the words "surely die" are [FONT=&quot]מוֹת תָּמוּת - signifying the irreversible finality of the death.

1 Timothy 6:16 - [/FONT]
16 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]who alone has immortality, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]who dwells in [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]unapproachable light, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]whom no one has ever seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen

Matthew 10:28 - [/FONT]
28 [FONT=&quot]And [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear Him [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


[/FONT]
 

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
This is untrue. All Christians believe in reincarnation, at least for believers. We usually call it "resurrection", just as Job said: And [though] after my skin [worms] destroy this [body], yet in my flesh shall I see God: [Job 19:26 KJV].

But not "Reincarnation" where people come back as other people, animals, bugs, etc.

After all, whose flesh would Job be in when he sees God, if he has been reincarnated numerous times?

You did all that just to give the same meaning as before? And you continue to come full circle back to a judgment for each individual, and thus a death for each individual. The bible does talk about a second death, which will harm only the unbelievers, in Rev 20:6,14. Are you also saying there are a bunch more deaths and the "second" death is not really a "second" death?

I think you have a hard time sticking to the topic. If you don't want to talk about the topic, please find another thread. You're all over the place trying to preach your doctrines. I'm glad you find your doctrines so exciting, but your first priority should be to see what God's word says rather than how to make God's word say what you want it to say.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

We are not reincarnated as animals, only into another human body. Christian's who don't believe in reincarnation make up all kinds of nonsense to try allow for those who lived before Christ (Or never heard the Gospel) as to how God will judge them and still find a way for them to get into Heaven, and by doing so they deny Jesus' own words and what He did for us on the cross.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
 

Derf

Well-known member
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

We are not reincarnated as animals, only into another human body. Christian's who don't believe in reincarnation make up all kinds of nonsense to try allow for those who lived before Christ (Or never heard the Gospel) as to how God will judge them and still find a way for them to get into Heaven, and by doing so they deny Jesus' own words and what He did for us on the cross.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Your scripture references don't support your assertion, and you've ignored my counter. If you're just here to preach, go someplace else.

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