What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

Derf

Derf

Well-known member
WatchmanOnTheWall said:
That's right Lazarus and the rich man were on either side of the abyss and not in it. Abraham never said there was 'no hope for alleviating his condition--ever' He said there was no way from one side to the other because of the abyss:

Luke 16
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

I believe everyone not in Christ went or goes to either side of the abyss like Lazarus and the rich man and in these places reincarnation is a given, that is until the great white judgement throne when the wicked and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire forever.
Click to expand...

But if the rich man were able to leave the bad side (by being reincarnated) and return to the good side, then some COULD "cross over from there to us."
 
WatchmanOnTheWall

WatchmanOnTheWall

Well-known member
Derf said:
But if the rich man were able to leave the bad side (by being reincarnated) and return to the good side, then some COULD "cross over from there to us."
Click to expand...

No, he didn't cross over the abyss. People are reincarnated directly from either side of the Abyss to Earth. And also directly from Heaven to Earth. It is an inter-dimensional transition of the spirit of the person to Earth, just like the return journey from Earth to Heaven or Hell.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
If we are given eternal bodies in the resurrection, and time no longer applies to us, then are we "outside of time"? Thus, are we everywhere/everytime in eternity, like some say God is?

Doesn't that mean we "were" in the beginning with God, like Jesus was?
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Derf said:
If we are given eternal bodies in the resurrection, and time no longer applies to us, then are we "outside of time"? Thus, are we everywhere/everytime in eternity, like some say God is?

Doesn't that mean we "were" in the beginning with God, like Jesus was?
Click to expand...
Eternality is the quality of transcending time (and every other noun). We are not eternal, we are everlasting, or unending, but not eternal.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
No.
Click to expand...

Is God "everlasting"? Is it in a different way than we are? (I'm not asking about the source of His everlasting characteristic vs ours, but the effect.)

If "yes" (I assume this will be your answer), then if "different", please explain the difference as you see it.

Thanks,
Derf
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Derf said:
Is God "everlasting"?
Click to expand...
Sure, because eternal is everlasting, but eternal is more than everlasting.
Derf said:
Is it in a different way than we are?
Click to expand...
He's eternal.
Derf said:
(I'm not asking about the source of His everlasting characteristic vs ours, but the effect.)
Click to expand...
Can we experience what God experiences? No.
Derf said:
If "yes" (I assume this will be your answer), then if "different", please explain the difference as you see it.

Thanks,
Derf
Click to expand...
We would be as limited by time as He has deemed fit.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
Sure, because eternal is everlasting, but eternal is more than everlasting.
He's eternal.
Can we experience what God experiences? No.
We would be as limited by time as He has deemed fit.
Click to expand...

So what does "eternal" mean as opposed to "everlasting"? Can you describe it? And how do we know?
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Derf said:
So what does "eternal" mean as opposed to "everlasting"? Can you describe it? And how do we know?
Click to expand...
Eternal is unlimited by time. Everlasting is unending. We know it because God cannot be limited by anything, and still have it meaningful to call Him God.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
Eternal is unlimited by time. Everlasting is unending. We know it because God cannot be limited by anything, and still have it meaningful to call Him God.
Click to expand...

Such a broad view can get us in trouble. God is infinite in some things, and has none of some things. I suppose He is limited in how many cows He has, for instance. Not that He couldn't make more, but there's no need.

God is more perfect than infinite, though perfection implies infinite in some cases.

Unfortunately, we measure eternity by comparing it against what we know, but that doesn't necessarily mean that eternity is the opposite of time--depends on what "time" is, and there are a few definitions floating around.
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Derf said:
Such a broad view can get us in trouble. God is infinite in some things, and has none of some things. I suppose He is limited in how many cows He has, for instance. Not that He couldn't make more, but there's no need.

God is more perfect than infinite, though perfection implies infinite in some cases.

Unfortunately, we measure eternity by comparing it against what we know, but that doesn't necessarily mean that eternity is the opposite of time--depends on what "time" is, and there are a few definitions floating around.
Click to expand...
This isn't a broad view at all, God's eternality is specifically limited to the degree to which time limits or bounds God, which is, not at all.

And there are those on TOL who deny that time is nonfiction, but that doesn't matter to whether He is limited by it, since whether time is fictional or nonfiction objective fact, in either case, He is not limited by time.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
This isn't a broad view at all, God's eternality is specifically limited to the degree to which time limits or bounds God, which is, not at all.

And there are those on TOL who deny that time is nonfiction, but that doesn't matter to whether He is limited by it, since whether time is fictional or nonfiction objective fact, in either case, He is not limited by time.
Click to expand...

But not being limited by time has been described in different ways. One way is that God was in the beginning, He is now, and He will be in the future. God is in all time periods/ages/eons. I think this is the most biblical--He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The other way is that God is able to move back and forth in time at will. Perhaps the bible allows for this one, but doesn't describe it, as far as I know.

Which do you hold to?

(A possible third way is that God, being outside of time, can interact with any point in time when He wants, but I think that is really a different way of saying the second one above.)
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Derf said:
But not being limited by time has been described in different ways. One way is that God was in the beginning, He is now, and He will be in the future. God is in all time periods/ages/eons. I think this is the most biblical--He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The other way is that God is able to move back and forth in time at will. Perhaps the bible allows for this one, but doesn't describe it, as far as I know.

Which do you hold to?

(A possible third way is that God, being outside of time, can interact with any point in time when He wants, but I think that is really a different way of saying the second one above.)
Click to expand...
If He ever did "go back in time," then we would never know it since we would never have had a memory of what things were like "before" He "went back in time," so this is a non-issue for me to infer everything that Him not being subject to time entails necessarily, as far as His therefore ability/power wrt time and "time travel." :idunno:
 
Nihilo

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Another way of saying it, is that if God ever did "go back in time," and change history, then the reality today is precisely as He providentially willed it to be, and, in a very real sense, eternally so.
 
Derf

Derf

Well-known member
Nihilo said:
Another way of saying it, is that if God ever did "go back in time," and change history, then the reality today is precisely as He providentially willed it to be, and, in a very real sense, eternally so.
Click to expand...

Whether or not we would be able to detect it, it suggests that something was out of His control at one time, and He had to go back and fix it, based, I suppose, on new knowledge in the future. Makes Him seem incompetent to deal with something in real time. To me, this invalidates a classic Armenian view of God looking into the future to determine who is going to believe, and electing them on the basis before the beginning of time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top