Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
You didn't answer my question. According to the Bible a person who does not believe during his lifetime will perish. That sure doesn't sound like that person will get another chance!
What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?
- Thread starter Derf
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You didn't answer my question. According to the Bible a person who does not believe during his lifetime will perish. That sure doesn't sound like that person will get another chance!
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Not without being reincarnated no. That's why reincarnation is real otherwise most people would end up in the second death.
You are misinterpreting perish as being the first death when it is really the second death. However, to go to hell after each lifetime is like perishing in the second death but nowhere near as bad.
Derf
Well-known member
I guess you just answered the "Why do we care?" part of the thread title. If we assume that death is not the end of our chances, but just a beginning of another chance, and we teach others that as well, we run the risk of essentially damning people to hell (the really bad one) if we're wrong, don't you think?
Thus, it would seem imperative that you give more conclusive reasons why you believe in reincarnation. So far, you have merely given some scriptures that could be interpreted that way, but that are in opposition to others, as [MENTION=10]Jerry Shugart[/MENTION] and I have posted, whereas the ones that could be interpreted as supporting reincarnation could also , easily, be interpreted as saying something else.
The greater burden of proof would seem to be on you.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes you are right and that is why I believe God has allowed the heresy that we only live once to be the prevailing wisdom, about 80% of Christians believe this while only about 10% believe in reincarnation, also I believe that it wouldn't matter now if reincarnation was to become mainstream teaching, as Jesus' return is very soon and so for all intense purposes this is our last life before He should return.
Well assuming you read all of my long post #167 then I have put forward about everything I can, There are other verses that allude to reincarnation such as:
Revelation 1:7
"Look, he is coming with the clouds," and "every eye will see him, even those who pierced him";
The Roman Soldiers who pierced Jesus will see Jesus' second coming.
I can't think of any more for now so I'll have to leave it with you. At the end of the day this is no different from any other theology, in the sense that it is up the individual whether they believe it or not and that requires a certain amount of revelation from the Holy Spirit. Thank you for your question and interest in this subject.
Derf
Well-known member
If all will be resurrected, then even those Roman soldiers that pierced Jesus will see Him. I don't think the verse is any stronger for reincarnation than it is for resurrection, especially if it referring to judgment, as all will be judged.
I read through your long post, and it had very little in it about reincarnation except your assertions. If that's the best you have, I would sure advise you not to be preaching it, because you have no basis for it in scripture--as your long post has attested.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
You have misunderstood what I have explained: You said "If all will be resurrected, then even those Roman soldiers that pierced Jesus will see Him."
However this is not what I explained. The soldiers will be and are alive now, so that when Jesus returns they will see Him.
I am not trying to make a case for reincarnation instead of resurrection. Resurrection will still happen for the 144,000 at the first resurrection and for the great multitude at the second Resurrection after the 1000 years.
And as I have tried to explain as well this is issue relies on belief just as your position also does. You can not be dogmatic about this without making yourself look intolerant.
Derf
Well-known member
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Nice to see you laugh. Here's another verse about reincarnation:
Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall return to Sheol, all the nations that forget God.
See it says the wicked shall RETURN to hell. This is only possible with reincarnation.
Derf
Well-known member
Are there going to be nations in hell? With swastikas, hammer-and-sickles, stars and stripes, etc?
But I'm not averse to your trying to support reincarnation--that is certainly within the topic of the thread. I couldn't get over the intolerance defense. Still tearing up about that one!!
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes I can see why you think it's funny but on the other side of that is a serious point, perhaps that's why it seems funny?
No hell is bad, just bad, very bad.
Derf
Well-known member
So if there are not nations in hell, are you reading the verse correctly to come to the conclusion that it supports reincarnation, since the verse talks about nations being there?
Maybe the verse is talking about the wicked nations, which were nothing at one time until they became big enough to be called nations, returning to the oblivion from whence they came?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes, while it says wicked nations I believe it is referring to them going to Hell but once there they won't be a nation. In Hell you're on you're own till you are reincarnated. However, I believe there are different parts of Hell for varying degree of wickedness of the individual.
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Thus endeth the discussion.
WOTW, meet Pate.
Pate, meet WOTW.
:AMR:
QUESTION:
Why is it that those who start numerous threads implying they have it all figured out eventually give evidence of how far beyond the bounds they actually reside?
ANSWER:
Those that basically have little to say cannot resist the temptation to provide ample evidence of it.
AMR
Derf
Well-known member
What do you think about the rich man/Lazarus story? Is that an accurate picture of "Sheol" or "Hades" or "Hell" or not?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Thus endeth the discussion.
WOTW, meet Pate.
Pate, meet WOTW.
:AMR:
QUESTION:
Why is it that those who start numerous threads implying they have it all figured out eventually give evidence of how far beyond the bounds they actually reside?
ANSWER:
Those that basically have little to say cannot resist the temptation to provide ample evidence of it.
AMR
Most Christian's know that traditionally Christian teaching say's there is no such thing as reincarnation and indeed Christian's often use the only verse in the entire Bible that seems to 'prove' reincarnation is not real, which is Hebrews 9:27. Unfortunately this is because of a general mistranslation and a misunderstood verse and chapter. Here is the direct original Greek translation from the Interlinear Bible (the most accurate word for word translation):
Hebrews 9:27
And down to which, a which it situateth off, unto the ones, unto mankind, to once to have had died off, with moreover to the one, this a separating.
Notice that it say's mankind, most translations however instead say 'man' but the Weymouth New Testament translation, which has the closest match to the original wording, dose correctly translate it as mankind:
Hebrews 9:27
And since it is reserved for all mankind once to die, and afterwards to be judged.
It is still not know who wrote Hebrew's and whether it was Paul and or Apollos, Barnabas, or Zeanos, what is clear is that the writer throughout chapter nine uses the word mankind rather than just the word 'man'. Chapter nine is about the broader picture of God's plan for mankind and how Jesus only had to die once for mankind’s redemption, unlike the repeated mosaic sacrificial system. This was an important question at the time for the new Jewish Christian's. The writer then explains similarly that mankind will also die once and then face a final judgement. The writer does not suddenly change from talking about the larger picture of God's plan for mankind, to then just focusing on each individual's person's death. Instead he is actually talking about the final judgement that John writes about in chapter twenty of Revelation:
Revelation 20:11-15
Then I saw a great white throne, and One who was seated on it [God], from whose presence earth, and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing in front of the throne. And books were opened; and so was another book, namely the Book of Life; and the dead were judged by the things recorded in the books in accordance with what their conduct had been. Then the sea yielded up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades yielded up the dead who were in them, and each man was judged in accordance with what his conduct had been. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of fire; this is the Second Death, the Lake of fire. And if any one's name was not found recorded in the Book of Life he was thrown into the Lake of fire.
It is true of course that each individual is judged at their death as to whether they had faith in Jesus as there saviour, which determines if they go to Heaven or Hell but the judgement for the rewards of conduct are not done till the final judgement after the millennial reign of Christ. There is a partial reward for the 144,000 at the second coming of Christ, when they receive their resurrected bodies a thousand years before the great multitude get their resurrected bodies at the second resurrection:
Revelations 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.[The twenty four elders] And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus, and because of the word of God. [The 144,000] They had not worshipped the beast [The Anti-Christ] or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. [The great multitude]) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection [The 144,000]. The second death [The lake of fire] has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Throughout history Christian sects have sprung up with the truth that reincarnation is real, such as the Gnostics, Sethian, Valentinus, and Cather's for example but all were eventually squashed and killed off as heretic’s, mainly by the Catholic church. Such as in 1209 when they in-sighted crusader's to burn hundred's of Cather's alive at Montsegur, near Toulouse, in the south of France. Indeed, reincarnation is taught in the Jewish tradition's and this verse is often sited as alluding to reincarnation:
Job 33:29-30
“Behold, God does all these things, twice, three times, with a man, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be lighted with the light of life.
Jesus Himself and His disciples alluded to reincarnation a number of times too. For instance, Jesus stated that Elijah had come back as John the Baptist but he was not recognised and that Elijah would come again to restore all things, which John the Baptist clearly did not fulfil:
Mathew 17:10-13
The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
There are a number of other scriptures too where Jesus suggests or speaks about reincarnation:
Matthew 16:28
Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
Some Christians say this is referring to the Transfiguration but Jesus did not come in His Kingdom at that time. Instead Jesus was stating that some of the disciples with Him would be alive when He returns in the power and majesty of His Kingdom at His second coming. This could only happen if they are reincarnated to be alive at the time of Jesus’ return. Here’s another time that Jesus referred to us having more than one life.
John 21:20-23
Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the disciple John, who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?” Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” Because of this, the rumour spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”
The only way John could be alive at Jesus' second coming is if he is reincarnated. The disciples also alluded to reincarnation when they suggested the man born blind may have sinned in a previous life:
John 9:2
His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
It’s perhaps also worth pointing out that there are two types of deaths:
Revelation 2:11
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
It explains here that death itself and Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is like the Hell of Hell's. Death was one of the curses placed on man after the fall and it is this curse of our ‘first’ earthly type of death that we experience at the end of each life, which will be removed from those who enter into Heaven after the judgement, allowing those in Heaven and on the New Earth to live forever. Thus death will be destroyed in the lake of fire; which is the second and final type of death.
Beside these Biblical allusions there have been thousands of accounts of near death experiences throughout history, which point to an afterlife and equally, there numerous accounts from of people that have purported to have been reincarnated and lived before their current life too.
One estimate of how many Christians actually believe in reincarnation is about one in ten and it makes far more sense that we are reincarnated, as this way everyone would be given a fair chance to hear the message that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins. Otherwise all those who’d lived and died before Jesus came the first time, as well as all those who haven’t heard about Him since His resurrection; through no fault of their own, would be able to hear the Gospel and consider for themselves whether His message was true or not. Thus Jesus would be able to judge everyone equally on this basis. After all salvation and entry to heaven is only through Jesus:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
It would be just like a fair and just God to give us several lifetimes to give us as many chances as possible to turn to His Son, especially when He loves us so much that he gave His only Son to die for us. I believe we have all had many lives throughout history and that this created reality is part of a larger refining process, that will result in a perfect order when God the Father returns to renew Heaven and Earth after the Millennial Reign. The Millennial Reign will be when everyone who has yet to be saved will get another chance on Earth but this time with Jesus as their King who they will be able to see, this is when the great Multitude will be saved, and is why Jesus said:
John 20:29
Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
The blessed are the 144,000 who will reign as Priests of God and Christ for the thousand years.
I also believe this revelation about reincarnation will be and is being revealed now in these end times, because for all intents and purposes, this will be our last life before Jesus returns because His return is so close. So even the misinterpretation of Hebrews is actually ‘quite’ true, in the sense that because most of us will die during the tribulation, most will face a judgement after our last earthly death in this current age.
Also, the reason I believe this revelation wasn’t allowed to be widely accepted before now; was to impress upon us, over the last two thousand years, the importance of making that critical choice, whether to believe in Jesus or not, without thinking that we may get another chance in another life. Consider the recent rise in the population of the Earth, it’s greater now than ever before, as if we’re all being gathered together for one last chance to hear about Jesus before He returns. Don’t you think?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
Yes I do, Jesus was describing how Hell is made up of three parts: A place where the righteous go and another for the wicked, divided by the abyss:
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
2 Peter 2:4
Jubilee Bible 2000
For if God did not forgive the angels that sinned, but cast them down into the deepest abyss {Gr. Tartarus} and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-4.htm
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Tartarus
Derf
Well-known member
I'm not sure how the angel passages relate to the rich man/Lazarus story, but if you agree that it is an accurate picture of Sheol/Hades/Hell, then how can anyone leave there? The rich man couldn't, and Abraham refused his request for Lazarus to do so. If either Lazarus or the rich man were going to reincarnate anyway, then the story has little point regarding a temporary holding place for souls until they are reincarnated, don't you think?
I guess if the angel passages are related, then it shows that they, at least, are not reinspirited (?? since they were never incarnate in the first place); now they are not allowed freedom but are reserved/kept for judgment. Is it the same for humans?
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
I believe the Abyss is vertually impossible to get out of and thus those sent there are reserved for judgement, although there is a good chance that many of those fallen angels and demons there are about to be unleashed during the tribulation and possibly at the end of the 1000 year reign too, during in the last rebellion. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is fictional but the setting is real and shows what is basically the situation there for many. What Jesus left out was revealing more secrets:
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'
Jesus/God could not reveal everything then but only reveals a bit at a time over the last 6000 years, otherwise the enemy would know how to win the war, or more precisely disrupt God's perfect plan.
Derf
Well-known member
Perhaps. But when revealing new things, Paul commended those that searched the scriptures to see whether they were true. So new stuff, if there is any, needs to be in harmony with the old stuff.
You say the abyss is "virtually impossible to get out of", but neither Lazarus nor the rich man were in the abyss, according to you. Yet they weren't leaving any time soon. It seems to me that the rich man's condition, "in torment", was based on his life, and Abraham offered him no hope for alleviating his condition--ever.
WatchmanOnTheWall
Well-known member
That's right Lazarus and the rich man were on either side of the abyss and not in it. Abraham never said there was 'no hope for alleviating his condition--ever' He said there was no way from one side to the other because of the abyss:
Luke 16
25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
I believe everyone not in Christ went or goes to either side of the abyss like Lazarus and the rich man and in these places reincarnation is a given, that is until the great white judgement throne when the wicked and Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire forever.