What is death? What is resurrection? And why do we care?

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know why the "death" in Jas 1:15 needs to be anything other than physical death.

Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

 

[Derf]

Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

On the day? How about "in" the day? And I'd have to answer yes.


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[patrick jane]

Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

At that moment Adam became mortal, subject to physical death, disease, illness and the knowledge of good and evil.. The wages of sin is death.

 

[glorydaz]

At that moment Adam became mortal, subject to physical death, disease, illness and the knowledge of good and evil.. The wages of sin is death.

Yep.

Gen. 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

 

[Danoh]

At that moment Adam became mortal, subject to physical death, disease, illness and the knowledge of good and evil.. The wages of sin is death.

Nope. They were already mortal.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now they would die physically too.

That tree HAD kept them physically alive.

But now they were barred from access to it.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Though one day, the curse of being barred from that life sustaining tree will be...removed.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Of course, a certain person's agreement with you should have been signal enough that your guess was as off as theirs often is. :chuckle:

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I think you're going to have a hard time using all of that to help with "spiritually alive or dead" discussions. I'm open to hearing a bit of it, but I think it's going pretty far away from the actual topic. If you feel the need to go further down that path, please don't just give your theology, but explain it, too--tell me why you feel it applies, using scripture to back it up. Please don't just throw a bunch of links and verses in your post and expect any decent response.

Since you did that in your first section, I'll respond to that here. The rest I don't think applies, and you haven't really shown that it does, either.


Those verses show nothing of the kind. What you seem to be doing is taking this thread and trying to jam a bunch of unrelated teaching into it. Go do that somewhere else. I'd like this thread to stay on topic.

Thanks,
Derf

Fair enough, I did think it was a stretch after I slept and realised I should have instead talked about how before the fall Adam, Eve and the World was bathed in the supernatural light that God created on day one but this light went out of Adam, Eve and the World at the fall. BTW I also believe this same supernatural light that covered Adam and Eve also projected as supernatural clothing because when Jesus resurrected he was wearing clothes (He didn't get clothes from somewhere else). Jesus is the light of the world in a literal sense as well as a figurative sense. So what does this have to do with spiritual aliveness, well when Adam died on the day he sinned that light vanished and Adam died spiritually. He was dead in his sins but when Christ resurrected that light returned via Jesus and through faith in Him we are also made alive in Christ, spiritually alive. However, eventually after the 2 resurrections and when God makes a new Heaven and Earth that light will return:

Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

NONSENSE!

Anyone who was not one of the children of Israel was considered to be a Gentile. And here James makes it plain that there will be some Gentiles who will be saved:

"And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:13-17).​

Stephen Anderson, who is on the youtube to which you gave a link, flew over the cuckoo's nest!

The operative word there was 'WAS'. You are talking about everything up to Christs death, from then on genealogies count for nothing as Paul said. From then on we are now grafted into the House of Israel by faith in Christ's which is a spiritual link rather than a physical genetic link. If you watch the video you will learn why that is true from an evidential POV in detail because it is to do with mathematics and genetics. Please watch the video if you wish to respond with a considered opinion.

 

[patrick jane]

Nope.

Yep. I pay no mind to your commentaries because you are often "off" base. Were Adam and Eve created mortal?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The operative word there was 'WAS'. You are talking about everything up to Christs death, from then on genealogies count for nothing as Paul said.

WRONG!

James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :

"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things" (Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).​

James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words in "bold":

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).​

James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns. He quoted those words in regard to a controversy that had arisen in the early church. There were some in the Jerusalem church who believed that the Gentile believers should be required to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses. In other words, some believed that the Gentiles should be members of the commonwealth of Israel. However, James quoted Amos in order to demonstrate that when the Lord Jesus returns there will be Gentiles being saved as Gentiles: "After this I will return...that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called". Therefore it was decided that the Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised and did not have to keep the law" (Acts 15:24-29).

Stephen Anderson's assertions are easily proven to be false! All he proves that he is ignorant about what the Scriptures actually reveal about this subject. He is a waste of time and if you are smart you will cease from allowing him to influence your beliefs. He cannot be trusted on these serious matters and will only lead you astray!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

At that moment Adam became mortal, subject to physical death, disease, illness and the knowledge of good and evil.. The wages of sin is death.

Adam was always mortal because in order to live for ever he had to eat of the Tree of Life. If he was immortal there would have been no need to eat of that tree.

 

[patrick jane]

Adam was always mortal because in order to live for ever he had to eat of the Tree of Life. If he was immortal there would have been no need to eat of that tree.

I see, and I thought twice about using the word mortal. God's plan was for them to live forever so that's part of His creation, the moment they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, that plan changed.

 

[Derf]

Nope. They were already mortal.

Genesis 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now they would die physically too.

That tree HAD kept them physically alive.

But now they were barred from access to it.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Though one day, the curse of being barred from that life sustaining tree will be...removed.

Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Of course, a certain person's agreement with you should have been signal enough that your guess was as off as theirs often is. :chuckle:

Rom. 14:5; 5:7,8.

Hi Danoh.

We talked about this a bit a few posts back. Jesus described the "children of the resurrection" thus:

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. [Luk 20:36 KJV]

Did the angels need the tree of life? If not, then humans won't either, at least for eternal life. Plus, in the garden they were not commanded to eat of that tree, but allowed to. It seems to mean there was no harm in eating of it, but it was not THE sustainer of life for them.

 

[Derf]

Fair enough, I did think it was a stretch after I slept and realised I should have instead talked about how before the fall Adam, Eve and the World was bathed in the supernatural light that God created on day one but this light went out of Adam, Eve and the World at the fall. BTW I also believe this same supernatural light that covered Adam and Eve also projected as supernatural clothing because when Jesus resurrected he was wearing clothes (He didn't get clothes from somewhere else). Jesus is the light of the world in a literal sense as well as a figurative sense. So what does this have to do with spiritual aliveness, well when Adam died on the day he sinned that light vanished and Adam died spiritually. He was dead in his sins but when Christ resurrected that light returned via Jesus and through faith in Him we are also made alive in Christ, spiritually alive. However, eventually after the 2 resurrections and when God makes a new Heaven and Earth that light will return:

Revelation 22:5
There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light.

The light of glory might be "projected" as clothing, but I think you have to stretch the scriptures a bit for any proof of it. We don't know where He got His clothing after the resurrection. I can imagine that His father made Him a coat of many colors, perhaps, since He loves Him so.

That's something I want to be careful about in this thread--using our already built-up theology to answer questions about death and resurrection instead of trying to find the answers directly in scripture.

Thanks,
Derf

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't know why the "death" in Jas 1:15 needs to be anything other than physical death.

Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

 

[patrick jane]

Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

What does "full grown" mean in James 1:15 KJV - ? Adam lived to be 930 so he didn't physically die on "that" day.

 

[Derf]

Did Adam die physically on the day when he ate of the forbidden tree?:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

Didn't you already ask this question? http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-do-we-care&p=5134850&viewfull=1#post5134850
And didn't I already answer it? http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-do-we-care&p=5135116&viewfull=1#post5135116

 

[Jerry Shugart]

What does "full grown" mean in James 1:15 KJV - ?

I don't see those words in that verse.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Didn't you already ask this question? http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-do-we-care&p=5134850&viewfull=1#post5134850
And didn't I already answer it? http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...y-do-we-care&p=5135116&viewfull=1#post5135116

Sorry,I forgot. But he didn't die physically in that day or on that day.

 

[patrick jane]

I don't see those words in that verse.

It was in Derf's version.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

WRONG!

James quoted from the Greek version of the OT (the Septuigant), but with a slight modification. Here are the verses from the Septuigant :

"In that day will I raise up again the tabernacle of David that is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up...That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who does all these things" (Amos 9:11-12; Septuigant).​

James replaced the words "in that day" with the following words in "bold":

"After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it. That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things" (Acts 15:16).​

James believed that this prophecy of Amos will not be fulfilled until after the Lord Jesus returns. He quoted those words in regard to a controversy that had arisen in the early church. There were some in the Jerusalem church who believed that the Gentile believers should be required to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses. In other words, some believed that the Gentiles should be members of the commonwealth of Israel. However, James quoted Amos in order to demonstrate that when the Lord Jesus returns there will be Gentiles being saved as Gentiles: "After this I will return...that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called". Therefore it was decided that the Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised and did not have to keep the law" (Acts 15:24-29).

Stephen Anderson's assertions are easily proven to be false! All he proves that he is ignorant about what the Scriptures actually reveal about this subject. He is a waste of time and if you are smart you will cease from allowing him to influence your beliefs. He cannot be trusted on these serious matters and will only lead you astray!

RUBBISH!

Amos 9 has only been partially fulfilled in this age of grace and only from a spiritual POV. It's ultimate fulfilment will be when Jesus returns and literally rebuild's David's fallen tent by building His Millennial Temple in Jerusalem, as described in Ezekiel, and over His 1000 year reign the residue of men, including gentiles, will be saved in that last age before the Great White Throne Judgement.