What does John 14:21 mean?
- Thread starter Jacob
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I do not agree with your designation moral civil ceremonial nor do I agree that God's law was so Israel could be clean.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
First, some context.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 14:21-24
Since this is about obedience to the law, then getting the context of obedience correct is essential. After that, the verse simply tells us what God will do.
1. Verse 21 says that the one that loves Christ keeps His commandments. Verse 23 confirms that love of God must be present before that obedience is even possible.
We love him, because he first loved us.
I John 4:19
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:5
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Galatians 2:19-20
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:8
...and continuing on...
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Romans 5:9-10
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
2 Thess 2:16-17
So the love we have for Christ is, in fact, not really our own (in origin). It is only ours because of Him. It is only ours if we are His. It can't be otherwise. And, as Paul tells the Ephesians, we will produce good works if we are in Him. Not that we might, but we will. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit. HE is the vine.
2. To those who don't believe Christ (verse 24), that same individual is still under the old law. Christ's commandments (which do not take away from the law nor invalidate it) are what He is referring to here. So to the one who is not Christ's, these things don't apply. They are still under the curse of the law. But what are Christ's commandments? I have heard there are around 50. Many of them come from His sermon on the mount in Matthew 5 and 6. One characteristic of them is that they deal far more with what and who a person is than they do what a person actually does :
Blessed are the poor in spirit...
Blessed are the meek...
Blessed are the pure in heart...
And another structure that points to a further exposition of the addressing the Law of God to the heart :
"You have heard it said...but I say to you..."
This is used to directly deal with the root of murder, adultery, divorce, oaths, response to evil and approach to ones enemies in Matthew 5:21-48. In all these situations, the Law is upheld, but it is seen that it can't go to the depth that God requires of one who is to have a righteousness which exceeds that of the Pharisees (Matthew 5:20). Indeed, none of these commands is really ones that can be adhered to without a radical and complete change of nature and heart. We cannot love our enemies without Christ. We cannot avoid covetousness or hatred without Christ. We may be able to avoid consummating our lust or restrain our anger so we don't physically take the life of another - but Jesus reveals that that isn't enough.
So to answer your question, the verse is saying that the only one who can love Him is the one He has loved, the one He has saved, the one He has changed, the one He has called and chosen. Only such a person can love Him and obey Him. Only such a person even wants to properly obey Him. And He is the one who will establish such a person in good works. This is the picture of someone who has been changed and desires holiness above all. Not the pharisaical definition of works holiness, but the holiness of the hidden man of the heart whose praise is of God.
Do you believe that Jesus wants you to keep and teach the commandments?
Shalom.
Jacob
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If you are thinking of Matthew 5:19, you have totally missed what I was saying.
Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2 Peter 1:2-9
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:2-7
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
James 1:22-25
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
James 2:8-13
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Galatians 5:1-3
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Galatians 5:13-14
That fulfillment is what is impossible without Christ. But in His work - and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us - we not only fulfill the Law of love, but all the law in ordinances that was against us. So to ask if I believe one should keep and teach the commandments is missing the picture. I don't believe we should teach NOT to believe and obey the commandments, but I also don't believe teaching others to obey the commandments is what will save them. And those who are saved fulfill the law in Christ.
I believe you have some misconceptions. The Law does not save you. But that does not mean that you should not obey God.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Absent the rebirth, can you properly love your neighbor?
We are all commanded to do so. If you are not born again of the Spirit of God do you still sin? Is it possible to sin after being born again?
Shalom.
Jacob
nikolai_42
Well-known member
That's not what I asked. I asked if you could perfectly love your neighbor (and God - that was part of the commandment) without being born again.
I believe that the commandment was given before anyone was born again, and that God does not command us to do anything that we are not able to do or which He does not enable us to do, if I can use that word (enable). Some use the word enable in regard to what a person can do once or after they have been born again. Some people believe that a person could be born again before Jesus. Is this true?
Shalom.
Jacob
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Scripture is fairly clear about this. By the Law is no man justified. All have sinned. The Law was given to show us for who we are - not with the intent that it should be our salvation. There is no middle ground. You are either saved by your obedience or you are saved by faith. So to say that you believe that God does not command something that we are unable to do - there is truth to that - but never did He once (that I read) enable someone to literally and actually fulfill the Law to the letter. Except for Christ. So as I read your words, it seems like a concession to salvation by works. Abraham failed (lied, for one) yet he was justified because he believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness. Moses was a murderer who was chosen to lead Israel out of Egypt. David was an adulterer, a liar and a murderer who was a man after God's own heart. None of these men were justified by their (dis)obedience. All men's consciences confirm that the Law is good. But all men's hearts are deceitful and desperately wicked. The stress upon the Law is not what salvation is all about. Rather, it is about Christ's fulfillment of it on our behalf and our fulfillment of it (in Him) by His changing us and loving God and neighbor as He charged us so to do.
So with Jesus, the bar is made clearly higher than the externals of the OT. Jesus demands us to change our hearts. The Law tells us that our actions (and by Jesus' own words - our thoughts as well) betray us for what we are. So to hold to the Law itself is to cling to that which was supposed to be your death (that we might be raised in Christ - new creations). It's as though a child who is raised by a stern taskmaster of a father clings to the whip for his behavior but never once changing within. The whip was never meant to save him - only chastise him and turn him in the right direction. Likewise the Law. The boy should never be said to "obey the whip" or else he is merely a slave to it. But the one who takes the correction given out and changes internally no longer needs it because it has become internalized. That is a microcosm of what Christ does in us. The Law does not save us so continually relying on it means we haven't relied on the Spirit of God.
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Galatians 3:2-3
EDIT : So if one can love fully and properly both God and neighbor without being regenerated and born again in Christ, then salvation is entirely possible by works. If not, then the Law is only fulfilled BY being born again. The Law itself does none of that.
The Law is not fulfilled by being born again. The Law never saved. What I said about being born again before Jesus is because Jesus talked about being born again. But He was surprised or rather saying that somehow this was not understood, even as a doctrine if it can be called that. Else it was a reminder but I don't know of what.
What you are addressing is the idea that salvation was once by the works of the Law. I do not believe that. If faith is how people were saved, and this involves being born of the Spirit by faith or by the work of the Spirit rather than a work of relying on the Spirit, then it was never by works or by the Law. But the Law is of God and is for our obedience, as with the commandments of the Law found in the Ten Commandments or the Torah.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If the fulfilling of the Law is by loving God and neighbor, then you can't have it both ways. The Law is good. In no way is it to be preached against. But its use is specific. It is not for justification (which you have if you want to require obedience to IT specifically, as opposed to fulfilling it another way) but it IS for revealing sin. No man can honestly call Jesus Christ "Lord" save by the Holy Spirit. One is not saved in order to obey the Law. One is saved to fulfill it. There is a difference. But in both instances the Law is upheld as good, right and unimpeachable. It's just not an instrument of justification (eternal or otherwise).
I can't think of a great analogy, but this rather crude (and maybe overcomplicated) one finds a place in my mind. Please don't take it too far. It is meant to illustrate a point or two and not to draw elaborate theological conclusions from.
Imagine someone trying to clear a high jump. The bar is set at a certain height (say 10 feet just for argument's sake). No man has ever cleared the 10 foot bar. A small handful of people come along (at scattered intervals) and somehow bounce well over the 10 foot mark. Not by a few inches, but by 20 or 30 feet! Every now and then, when they attempt it, they seem to fall flat on their faces or run into the bar (or below it) like everyone else. Then - after years of showing how only a handful of people actually were able to clear the bar - along comes someone who sets the bar up at 25 feet - where he says it should have been all along. The 10' height was just used as a trial to get people used to the concept and cause them to try their best to overcome the height. Turns out, this is one of the inventors of the event. He reveals a secret that the select few learned years previous when they were able to clear the 10' bar by more than 20 feet. The inventor puts a substance in their soles that allows them to jump far higher than anyone else. Their own abilities haven't changed but they were shown how one needed to clear the bar. Now, with the bar at 25 feet, many people are clearing it with this enhanced sole. Their natural abilities are no better than they were (many of them couldn't jump more than an inch off the ground, if truth be told) but because they listened to the inventor, they now clear it without even having to put forth the necessary natural effort to do so. Some - whose natural tendencies are to be able to jump 8 or 9 feet off the ground - are not too happy with this and they continue to try and clear the 10' bar on their own (as they have) and complain that others are cheating and not really clearing it at all. They can't even jump a foot on their own! But they ignore the fact that the bar is really 25' (where the actual rules place it) and say that those that cleared the 25' height are denigrating the 10' height - because they can't clear it without the doctored sole. You see...to clear the 10' height, they have to clear the 25' height as well (the same thing has them clearing both). But those that point all the time to the 10' height - they (like everyone else) can't clear even it. All the while, those that are clearing the 25' height are satisfying the 10' requirement at the same time.
A little wordy maybe, and certainly more complicated than most parables, but it's the best comparison I can come up with on demand.
The commandments to love God and your neighbor are found in the Torah, the Law. It's not about measurements or success or doing better than the Law. If you mean that there is a higher law as well rather than rather than the Law of Moses, what did Jesus teach to obey that is not in agreement with the Torah? I mean to say that Jesus observed and taught the Law. He taught us to keep and teach the commandments. This is different from saying that you can't do it or that the only way you can is because you are saved and born again.
The commandments of God are for our obedience. They are for us to obey. No excuse for or on account of not being born again.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I wouldn't use the word "higher", nor would I say it is separate from the Law given on Sinai. Rather, it is fully understood in Christ. The original Law addressed (primarily) people's deeds. Their works. Christ expanded the understanding to reveal that the heart was at issue - not merely the actions. So as difficult as it is to act without sinning (the 10' bar), it is impossible for someone who is by nature a sinner to be pure in heart (for example). Not only was what Jesus taught in agreement with the Law, it revealed that God's standard was far higher than what most of Israel recognized. The righteousness of the Pharisees didn't even (really) meet the external standards - but Jesus' harshest words went to their hearts which were far from Him. But as Paul explained, that was and is true of all that are not born again. Being born again, one can fulfill the Law - but not by returning to the external commandments. As Paul said, it is by loving God and neighbor from the heart. Jesus commands, in one sense, are commentary on the Law. But in commenting on it, He showed it to be far harder to keep than most would admit. Impossible, actually. Apart from Him (who fulfilled it in a very direct and literal way). The Law is good if used properly. Commanding people to obey it is straying from the faith that fulfills it. The Law tells you what not to do in getting from here to heaven. The only way, however, to actually get there is by faith in Christ. You start getting your eyes on the Law (again), you start focusing on all you do wrong in yourself rather than in looking to Jesus - the author and finisher of faith. That doesn't mean your sin is excusable - it just means the only way past it is Christ - not teaching more Law.
If you truly believe that the Law is from God you do well in believing. Belief may precede action here.
Do you recognize that Jesus instructed that we keep and teach the commandments? What commandments? The commandments of the Law. I see no problem with telling people, beginning with my fellow Jews, to observe, keep, and teach the Law.
It is not about all the things that you have done wrong so not fulfilling it. It is about obedience which is fulfilling it.
Remember Romans 8:1-4. The requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
I do not know what you mean by external.
The Law is not the flesh. The Law is of and from God.
We begin the Sabbath here soon.
Shalom.
Jacob
Well that's ok, but what do you thibk about Acts 15?
Sent from my LGMS210 using Tapatalk
Acts 15. One thing from Acts 15 that we can learn is that there was no greater burden, for those who turned to God from among the Gentiles, than these essentials, which you can see there.
Acts 15:28-29 NASB 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."