The Berean
Well-known member
No, OJ was found "not guilty". That is not the same as "innocent." And he was found "guilty" of the wrongful deaths Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman in the subsequent civil trial.
toldailytopic: What is the main reason(s) you accept, or reject, God that exists?
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No, OJ was found "not guilty". That is not the same as "innocent." And he was found "guilty" of the wrongful deaths Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman in the subsequent civil trial.
elohiym
Well-known member
Yes! Eyewitness testimony is evidence. Thank you for doing what Persephone66 evidently could not do: answer a simple question.
As to the cause of the Red Sea parting, can you see how an event like that could be attribute to divine intervention without speculation?
No doubt!! Sheesh!! :doh:
MrRadish
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Eyewitness testimony is evidence for events taking place. It couldn't possibly be evidence for a metaphysical concept.
Nope. However likely you think the cause is to be such-and-such, it's fundamentally just speculation, because it's an abstraction from what you actually saw. As soon as you start creating hypotheses based on your observation it stops being eyewitness evidence.
elohiym
Well-known member
Tens of thousands witnessed the Red Sea part. It is evidence of a supernatural event.
These people were not witnesses to one supernatural event in isolation without context, but were witnesses to numerous supernatural events in close proximity and in the context that God was leading them and helping them.
MrRadish
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It is evidence of an event that could have been supernatural, potentially. Incidentally, we don't have tens of thousands of seperate accounts that the Red Sea was parted. We just have a book that says tens of thousands of people saw the Red Sea part. So in effect we only have one piece of evidence for it.
Again, we have one piece of evidence telling us this. If a thousand years from now I read a history book that tells me that, I don't know, 20 million people watched the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II on 2 June 1953, that doesn't automatically mean that I have access to 20 million pieces of eyewitness evidence for her having been crowned on that date. I just have one account, that of author.
You've pulled from nowhere that God was leading and helping them. How could they possibly have 'witnessed' God leading and helping them. They may have all been acting under the impression that God was leading and helping them but that isn't the same as eyewitness evidence, which is what we're discussing.
elohiym
Well-known member
Context.
If I come to you and tens of thousands of other people and tell you to come with me to a place God has prepared for you; then you witness several supernatural events in close proximity that I tell you are specifically signs from God; then you come with me and we're chased by an army of bad guys; then I raise a staff and a sea parts letting us pass through on dry land; then the pursuing army of bad guys is drowned when the water closes on them; then I bring you to a place without water and strike a rock with my staff and water gushes out and fills a lake; then a mountain-top is engulfed with fire because I tell you God is on that mountain....then....
lain:At what point do you believe that all those supernatural events aren't an unexplainable coincidence? The context requires no speculation, just faith in what is evidently before your eyes.
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Even if I trusted the source, I'd still want something more than their word. Sometimes people lie. Sometimes what is seen is percieved differently from reality.
So then your answer is "no", eye witness testimony is not evidence in your opinion.
Now, if you were answering in an intelligent way you would say....
YES, eye witness testimony is a form of evidence but more evidence might be needed before a clear judgment can be made.
So you consider all eye witness testimony to be evidence?
I don't accept or reject God's existence ... I am uncertain either way. I have never been able to get around the origin of God.
Including when you registered at TOL claiming you were Christian?
Did you actually change your mind, or was it already made up and you were waiting for your chance to say you fell away when you woke up one day?
What about the non Hebrew tales of the sea parting and the lost chariots? Or are you basing your belief on lack of information?
How about the Egyptian history of the Hebrew slave?
Here is your google word to start with. Hyksos
The non creationists have the same sort of problem. They don't know what what was before the big bang. Everything was just there but don't know why, or where the material came from.
God says he is the one that has always been there, and brought the physical world into existense.
Do you think that if somebody put all the components of a Boeing 777 in a container, it would just become a compled machine on its own? The parts would just come together in a highly complex fashion needed to be something other than random?
And on the other hand, life is far far more complex with lines of code, just like a computer. And the computer has a programmer that makes those lines of code, they don't just happen, they can't just happen into order on their own. A TV snow screen, (remember that?) shows what happens with random information.
MrRadish
New member
You can keeping saying 'context' forever, it's not going to make your point any clearer.
The number of people who believe what someone's said doesn't make the statement any more true.
and tell you to come with me to a place God has prepared for you; then you witness several supernatural events in close proximity that I tell you are specifically signs from God; then you come with me and we're chased by an army of bad guys; then I raise a staff and a sea parts letting us pass through on dry land; then the pursuing army of bad guys is drowned when the water closes on them; then I bring you to a place without water and strike a rock with my staff and water gushes out and fills a lake; then a mountain-top is engulfed with fire because I tell you God is on that mountain....then....
At what point do you believe that all those supernatural events aren't an unexplainable coincidence? The context requires no speculation, just faith in what is evidently before your eyes.
You're implying that there are only two options. Either it's a coincidence, or the precise God you describe is responsible for all of it. Therefore, all you can say is that unexplainable and unusual events are taking place and seem to be working in your favour. Even if we accept that they're supernatural (rather than freak coincidence, mass hallucination, or an embellished account, any of which it might be) that doesn't mean it has to be your God causing them. You could be being followed by an invisible flock of magic swans who've just taken a liking to you for all you know. That you think it's God doing it isn't evidence for God doing it.
It's like the alchemists and doctors of the mediaeval era. Some cultures found that minor diseases would sometimes disappear if you symbolically pretended to pull a snake out of the belly of the patient. We now understand that this is a placebo effect. That they assumed it worked because it helped to draw the evil spirit causing the illness is neither here nor there, and certainly isn't evidence for this being the case.
You have a girlfriend?
Abrasive one
Abrasive one
You need a short course in behavior modification. You are, in short, a snot! bybee:down:
Abrasive one
You need a short course in behavior modification. You are, in short, a snot! bybee:down:
What is your definition of evidence?
I don't think it was about any specific god. Just, is there a god?
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