Nobody's claiming it came from nothing. Scientists find this idea just as absurd as theists do.
Why don't people ever understand this point? Surely they've heard it before, multiple times.
toldailytopic: What is the main reason(s) you accept, or reject, God that exists?
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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Why don't people ever understand this point? Surely they've heard it before, multiple times.
Son of Jack
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Then that something, whatever it is, must have existed forever, no?
Son of Jack
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Why do you consider a snowflake to be ordered or complex?
Have you ever seen one?
Son of Jack
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I'm from Mississippi, so not many. But, yes I have.
*Acts9_12Out*
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I have many, but my two favorites are...
1. The Daniel 9 "70 weeks" prophecy
2. The men that the Apostles became after the resurrection of Jesus Christ
I have been talking with a friend who claims to be an atheist or agnostic (he's not quite sure yet...) He offered the following quote...
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent. Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?”
Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)
God bless,
Jeremy
lain: Nobody knows.
Saying something always existed doesn't wrap the whole problem up with a neat bow like you seem to think it does. You can't just say, "Whatever it is has existed forever, so let's stop thinking about it." There are questions that need to be answered.
Why does this thing exist instead of not exist?
How is this thing's existence being sustained?
If a deity is responsible for creating the universe, maybe the deity was also caused and whatever caused the deity to exist is what has existed forever? Maybe what has existed forever is what caused what caused a deity to exist? That can lead to an infinite regression of causes. Is there a problem with the idea of infinite causal regression that the idea of a single and eternal entity solves?
Etc., etc., etc.
Son of Jack
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Okay...
What makes you say that? I don't think it is neat or a bow.
Here's your assumption about me. Who says I quit thinking about it? Just because I think I have a pretty good idea what that something is does not mean that I quit thinking about it.
Sure.
What makes you think it needs a reason for its existence?
Why can't nothing be a reasonable answer?
Well, now you've gone and redefined a deity...
I think that reason cannot decide between the two, as both are reasonable conclusions. That is why subjective experience is a valuable clue. Do I think one is a more reasonable conclusion than the other? Sure. But that doesn't mean that I think someone else an idiot for going in the opposite direction.
Then you're one of the better theists and I applaud you, with one hand anyway. When you come to the dark side I'll toss in the other :chuckle:
Everything has a reason.
Are you asking why the idea of nothing sustaining the existence of an eternal entity can't be reasonable? If so, it's not reasonable because it doesn't make sense with current physical laws.
What would you call an entity that had every characteristic the deity you believe in has except for it having been caused? Just curious, cause what if the universe was created by an intelligent being, such as the god from the Bible, but the being didn't always exist? I'm assuming you believe in the biblical god: does it say anywhere that he always existed?
Again, cool
Now now, don't put words in people's mouths. Go reread the thread. That is exactly what I stated.
Here's what you asked:
So what is more likely? That an incredibly complex system organized itself from nothing, or was organized by an outside entity?
It's a false choice. You may have been saying that nobody buys the "came from nothing" story, but you pitched that option with only one alternative: a deity did it. Technically you only said "outside entity" but in a previous post you were talking about things being too complex to have happened randomly, so surely you were hinting at a deity.
There's at least one more option that I can think of: inanimate creation with no intelligence involved.
Son of Jack
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My question is, what could have done that or been responsible for that?
Son of Jack
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I agree. Have you read Leibniz on this point? This is what his cosmological argument is built on.
I can think of a few places where the Bible affirms the eternality of God. "I am the Alpha and Omega." "He is from everlasting to everlasting." I am he who was and is and is to come." I can do this much more thoroughly if you'd like. But, I believe that the God of the Bible is certainly eternal based on the propositional content of the Scriptures.
It always existed, whatever it was. (I'm basing that on absolutely nothing. I don't know what it was. But if a deity can exist forever, then surely it's possible for some inanimate entity to have been around forever.)
The cosmological argument just brings us back to those questions I asked a couple posts or so ago. What sustains an eternal eternal? Etc.
This just leads to how we know the Bible is actually the word of God and such.
I guess Nick M agrees with me on some level, look what he said in a neg rep
Woo hoo! I win! :first: What do I get?
I believe that there is no "supernatural being" of any kind, and the main reason is because there are lots and lots of religions that lots and lots of smart people believe, and I have realized that they all depend on some subjective rationalization to believe that they are true.
This, along with the fact that religions are commonly used for personal gain by abusive leaders, caused me to see that all religions are myths.
I have no problem agreeing that I don't know how or why things are the way they are, but I've been able to rationally counter any argument that asserts that a supernatural being is required.
(FWIW, I don't deny that my own beliefs are also the product of subjective rationalization. But they happen to be the ones that I find consistent with my understanding of reality -- which is the way I think it is for everyone.)
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