God's Truth
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Even you said faith alone is dead, but then you give that dead faith the power to give eternal life.
Faith alone is dead and cannot do ANYTHING.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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Even you said faith alone is dead, but then you give that dead faith the power to give eternal life.
Faith alone is dead and cannot do ANYTHING.
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We receive grace by faith.... but YOU reject grace altogether.
popsthebuilder
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And again, you insist upon division and strife among fellow believers.
You do not understand what you are talking about.
It was always about faith, yes.
The sacrifices were never pleasing to GOD. It has always been sacrifice of self/desires of the flesh, and the cutting away there from.
Abraham knew Christ because Christ /the Spirit is made known within everyone who believes/ has faith in GOD. We were all made through Christ.
The misdirection of men in high places is to blame for the misdirection of the masses.
Nothing new.
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popsthebuilder
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Isaiah 41: 14. Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. 15. Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff. 16. Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel. 17. When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. 18. I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water. 19. I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: 20. That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it. 21. Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22. Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. 23. Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. 24. Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you. 25. I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay. 26. Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words. 27. The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings. 28. For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counseller, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word. 29. Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion.
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lifeisgood
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You, gt, no question about it have a stubbornly comprehension thingy going on.
popsthebuilder
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Isaiah 43: 5. Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west; 6. I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7. Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him. 8. Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. 9. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. 10. Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. 12. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. 13. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? 14. Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships. 15. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King. 16. Thus saith the LORD, which maketh a way in the sea, and a path in the mighty waters; 17. Which bringeth forth the chariot and horse, the army and the power; they shall lie down together, they shall not rise: they are extinct, they are quenched as tow. 18. Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19. Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert. 20. The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen. 21. This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise. 22. But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel. 23. Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense. 24. Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities. 25. I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins. 26. Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified. 27. Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me. 28. Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.
Isaiah 45: 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 14. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
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Isaiah 45: 2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron: 3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel. 4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. 5. I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 11. Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. 12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. 13. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts. 14. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee; and there is none else, there is no God. 15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour. 16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols. 17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end. 18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. 25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
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God's Truth
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There is no such grace with out living faith.
God's Truth
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The sacrifices were not pleasing WHEN the people given them were NOT really sorry for their sins.
OTHERWISE, God liked the sacrifices.
Exodus 29:41Sacrifice the other lamb at twilight with the same grain offering and its drink offering as in the morning—a pleasing aroma, a food offering presented to the Lord.
Numbers 15:3 and you present to the Lord food offerings from the herd or the flock, as an aroma pleasing to the Lord—whether burnt offerings or sacrifices, for special vows or freewill offerings or festival offerings—
Ezra 6:9-11
9 Whatever is needed—young bulls, rams, male lambs for burnt offerings to the God of heaven, and wheat, salt, wine and olive oil, as requested by the priests in Jerusalem—must be given them daily without fail, 10 so that they may offer sacrifices pleasing to the God of heaven and pray for the well-being of the king and his sons.
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
Genesis 4:4
Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering;
popsthebuilder
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Malachi 1: 11. For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. 12. But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible. 13. Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn, and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD. 14. But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the LORD a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.
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lifeisgood
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Ephesians 2:4-9 (AKJV)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (we are all evil) (Romans 3:10-17)
5 even when we were dead in sins (there is no way we could by any means help ourselves), hath quickened us together with Christ (He does this, NOT our obedience or any kind of works), (by grace ye are saved); (grace is made possible solely by the DBR)
6 and hath raised us up together (the Resurrection of Christ is our Resurrection as well, spiritually speaking, and it gives us “newness of life” [Rom. 6:3–5]), and made us sit together in heavenly places (He did this, NOT our obedience) in Christ Jesus (all because of WHO Jesus is and WHAT Jesus did --- not any obedience of ours):
7 that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus (NONE of your obedience enters into WHO Jesus is and WHAT Jesus did. The Cross of Calvary is the oldest Doctrine in the Bible [1 Pet. 1:18–20], and is, in fact, the foundation on which all doctrine must be built. OBEDIENCE is NOT the oldest doctrine in the world).
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves (NONE of it comes from us; ALL of it comes from Him): it is the gift of God (a GIFT MUST be accepted to belong to us):
9 not of works (it does NOT matter irrespective of what you DO, you cannot merit Salvation), lest any man should boast (boast in your own ability and strength to save yourself; we are allowed to boast ONLY in the Cross [Gal. 6:14]).
God's Truth
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What is your point, pops? I already explained to you that God liked the sacrifices when the best was given; yet, He did not like the sacrifices from those who were not sorry for their sins and who did not give their best.
So how have you proven me wrong? Do you understand the scriptures you posted?
lifeisgood
New member
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. (Ps. 51:16)
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. (Ps. 40:6)
Be pleased to save me, Lord; come quickly, Lord, to help me. (Ps. 40:13)
But as for me, I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; you are my God, do not delay. (Ps. 40:17)
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. (Ps. 40:6)
Be pleased to save me, Lord; come quickly, Lord, to help me. (Ps. 40:13)
But as for me, I am poor and needy; may the Lord think of me. You are my help and my deliverer; you are my God, do not delay. (Ps. 40:17)
popsthebuilder
New member
I am not trying to prove you wrong at this time.
I read.....a lot. When I find something that seems pertinent to discussion I may or may not post it.
Though admittedly; the particular avenue of students that I currently venture is due in part to our conversation, it is not a rebuttal or refutation of your words.
If and when I decide to show why I believe that the law was manipulated then I will let you know.
That you can't find it or choose not to produce it on your own is rather troubling though, honestly.
peace
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God's Truth
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When you falsely accused me of not knowing about the transition from old testament to new, I knew it was you who did not understand it.
You fail to see that the Jews and anyone who wanted to belong to God had to clean themselves, and God gave them a way to do that, and it was called the purification/ceremonial works of the law.
You fail to understand that no one has to do those purification works anymore because we would now be purified by faith in Jesus' blood.
Jesus purifies us with his blood. We no longer have to do the purification works, but we still have to obey God.
Paul explains to the Gentiles that the Jews who had the relationship with God did the purification works and still were sinners; and that is reason enough not to keep Gentiles out of the new covenant.
God bound all to disobedience so He can have mercy on all.
You are the one who does not understand at all the transition from old to new.
God's Truth
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Please reread my reply because you quoted me during my making adjustments to what I wanted to say to you.
You gave scriptures of people giving defective animals to God, they were not giving their best. They were not obeying God and honoring Him with their best. They were giving God blind and diseased animals.
Why are you saying such things to me as you did in that last sentence?
God's Truth
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King David committed adultery and murder, for which God did not have sacrifices and offerings for such sins. The penalty for such sins was death.
All David could do was be sorry for his sins, confess them, and beg for forgiveness.
lifeisgood
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You flatter yourself, gt. Usually we wait for others to flatter us.
Just like the Pharisees and Sadducees. Isn't it wonderful how the Lord accepted their obedience and works. They even boasted to Him. What was our Lord's response? Vipers, hypocrites, blind guiding the blind, etc.
The ONLY one saying that they have to follow the Law is gt.
I was NOT saved because I did anything. God chose to save me. He caught me by surprise and what a wonderful surprise it was. Eternity will not be long enough to say Thank you Lord for saving me.
You and I are still sinners and we will die sinners. We are NOT habitual sinners but sinners we are. It matters not that you say you are not a sinner, you are. It matters not if I say I am not a sinner, I am.
I am a saved sinner nevertheless.
God is awesome! In that we have no disagreement.
You are still in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John working trying to OBEY what does not belong to you and you REJECT what does belong to you by GIFT. You have not graduated to the Risen Lord's face-to-face first-hand account of God's Salvation by purely grace through faith.
YOU, or I, are NOT SAVED by OBEDIENCE, we are SAVED by GRACE through FAITH. FAITH in WHO Jesus is and WHAT Jesus did.
The Jews REJECTED God's GIFT then, and they continue to REJECT God's GIFT now --- WHO Jesus is and WHAT Jesus did --- but, oh, do they work to OBEY the Law.
Like David said:
You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. (Ps. 51:16)
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require. (Ps. 40:6)
lifeisgood
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Correct.
It wasn't David's OBEDIENCE that saved him. It was God's GRACE through FAITH.
lifeisgood
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David was really sorry for his sins, and he knew, without a shadow of a doubt, that no sacrifice (even if available) was going to cut it.
Right Divider
Body part
Salvation by grace through faith comes FIRST, then living it comes after.
My salvation is completely secure because the LORD Jesus Christ did all that was needed to save me.