The Thorn on Paul's Side

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn on Paul's Side

Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way how trying to obey the law without faith was not possible.

It wasn't a "sinful" thorn in Paul's side. Paul says the thorn was a messenger of Satan.
What do messengers do? Think about it. Messengers give messages. What kind of messages would Paul be getting from the messenger of Satan? Paul says, "That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."
The messenger of Satan was likely telling Paul the messages from Satan! Satan was probably tormenting Paul by describing the hardships and persecutions and difficulties Paul was going to go through.

Ben Masada, you do not obey God. You pretend to be a Jew but you do not have blood to clean yourself. Since you know you have no blood of an animal and a temple in which to sacrifice, you say God did not really say we needed blood.

You exchange the truth of God for a lie.

Nothing to do with faith but repressed feelings that just could not leave him and were for that matter causing him to live as a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from that body of death. (Rom. 7:24)

Listen GT, have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander"? If you have, do you recall how AMORAL they lived. For them (Greeks) their style of life was not sinful but for Paul who read Torah as a Jew and found out how the Law condemned his style of life, it was a little too late as his Greek style of life had become for him second nature. Since he could not do any thing about it, he made of himself an exception to the rule that no one can serve two masters and thanked God for serving him in his mind only while serving sin in the flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 8:24) And he became like the preacher who says, "Do what I say but not what I do for I am a sinner too." Nice try though, but a bad way out.

 

[Ben Masada]

Pastors in many if not all denominations teach that falseness, that Paul, after Jesus saved him, struggled with sin so much and was the worst of sinners.

So many Christians say that in Romans 7, Paul was speaking of his life after Jesus saved him, that he could not stop sinning, that he could not do good, that he was a wretched man. I can hardly believe that people actually believe Apostle Paul was speaking of himself as a sinner AFTER Jesus saved him. That is utterly absurd.

Do you really believe Paul is calling himself a wretched man after Jesus saved him? No way had Paul spoke of himself in such a way after Jesus saved him. Paul asks, “Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?” Jesus saved Paul from his body of death! Through life through the Spirit, we are no longer slaves to sin! Read Romans chapter 8. In Romans chapter 8, you will learn about life for Paul and all true believers.

If you want to know how to stop sinning, I will tell you how.

You do not know how because no one can stop sinning. To stop sinning is to become righteous and there none on earth who does only good and never sins. (Eccles. 7:20) One stops sinning only when he or she dies. Paul considered himself a wretched man because he could not stop sinning. (Rom. 7:24)

 

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn on Paul's Side

Where does it say in his side? It just says in his flesh. Meaning a physical problem.

Anyway i would guess his physical issue was his eyesight.

Galatians 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/thorn.cfm

In his side is just an embellishment of "in his flesh". You are making a big deal our of nothing. Yea, Paul's thorn in his flesh was indeed physical but sinful. It was akin to his lifestyle as a Hellenistic Jew. Hellenists in general were Amoral. Paul's problem with his eyes was due to his condition as an epileptic which is also called the "fall" disease. Hence, Paul fell from his horse when he had that attack on the Road to Damascus. But epilepsy or an eye condition is not sinful. Sinful was the condition whose feelings he tried to repress and became a miserable man trying. (Rom. 7:24)

 

[Ben Masada]

Please evaluate your interpretation Ben Masada, and see if it comes into agreement with this Bible verse.

Acts 21:24 NASB - 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

It didn't help though. In this text above, James was advising Paul to camouflage himself in the Temple to make believe that he had nothing to do with the Jewish accusation from abroad that he was teaching the Jews to stop circumcising their children, to abandon "Moses" aka the Law as well as all the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) It didn't help as I said because Jews from Asia Minor had come to the Temple for that festival and recognized Paul and arrested him and reported him to the authorities and he had to appear in Court. (Acts 21:28) From that arrest, Paul never got free again. He appealed to Caesar, was taken to Rome, stayed in house arrest and died two years later. (Acts 28:30)

 

[God's Truth]

Nothing to do with faith but repressed feelings that just could not leave him and were for that matter causing him to live as a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from that body of death. (Rom. 7:24)

Listen GT, have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander"? If you have, do you recall how AMORAL they lived. For them (Greeks) their style of life was not sinful but for Paul who read Torah as a Jew and found out how the Law condemned his style of life, it was a little too late as his Greek style of life had become for him second nature. Since he could not do any thing about it, he made of himself an exception to the rule that no one can serve two masters and thanked God for serving him in his mind only while serving sin in the flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 8:24) And he became like the preacher who says, "Do what I say but not what I do for I am a sinner too." Nice try though, but a bad way out.

You are badly mistaken not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

Jesus says not to be a hypocrite as the Pharisees were.

Matthew 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

 

[God's Truth]

You do not know how because no one can stop sinning. To stop sinning is to become righteous and there none on earth who does only good and never sins. (Eccles. 7:20) One stops sinning only when he or she dies. Paul considered himself a wretched man because he could not stop sinning. (Rom. 7:24)

We can stop sinning. You bear false witness against Paul. Paul beat his body and made it a slave so that he would not be disqualified as he preached to others.


1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn of Paul's Side

The Thorn of Paul's Side

You are badly mistaken not knowing the scriptures or the power of God.

Jesus says not to be a hypocrite as the Pharisees were.

Matthew 23:3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

No, this attitude was of Paul and not of the Pharisees. Paul was the with the characteristic of the preacher that says, "Do as I say, though not as I do for I am a sinner too." That's why he served God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Jesus would never insult the Pharisees that way because he was a Pharisee too.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn of Paul's Side

The Thorn of Paul's Side

We can stop sinning. You bear false witness against Paul. Paul beat his body and made it a slave so that he would not be disqualified as he preached to others.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Paul indeed tried hard to subject his body to God's Law but he couldn't because the feelings to satisfy the craves of the flesh would just not go away.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul indeed tried hard to subject his body to God's Law but he couldn't because the feelings to satisfy the craves of the flesh would just not go away.

Paul was explaining what it is for someone without faith.

 

[Ben Masada]

Paul was explaining what it is for someone without faith.

I thought he knew by then what was someone without faith. When he said that Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight, the meaning is that to walk by faith is to walk in the dark and, to walk by sight is to walk with understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

 

[chrysostom]

are you saying paul was no longer sinning when he wrote about the thorn in his side?

On the contrary, Paul was living in sin and unable to get rid of his new condition caused by the Law.

what was his new condition?
and
how was it caused by the law?

 

[God's Truth]

No, this attitude was of Paul and not of the Pharisees. Paul was the with the characteristic of the preacher that says, "Do as I say, though not as I do for I am a sinner too." That's why he served God in his mind only while serving sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25) Jesus would never insult the Pharisees that way because he was a Pharisee too.

Paul trained himself and we are to train ourselves.

Luke 6:40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

1 Corinthians 9:25 Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.

1 Timothy 4:7, 8 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Titus 2:4 Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children,

Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

Hebrews 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.

 

[God's Truth]

I thought he knew by then what was someone without faith. When he said that Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight, the meaning is that to walk by faith is to walk in the dark and, to walk by sight is to walk with understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

Again, Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way what it is like for someone under the old law without faith.

The old law was not based on faith (Galatians 3:12, but the new law of Christ is (Romans 3:27, 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2).

 

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn of Paul's Side

The Thorn of Paul's Side

what was his new condition?
and
how was it caused by the law?

Paul's condition was sinful and, it was caused by the Law because as a Hellenistic Jew he either did not know that it was sinful or he never cared it was sinful or not. But when he found out from reading the Law that it was a sinful condition, he became a wretched man for trying to repress his sinful feelings that just didn't seem to go away. Now, what was it? Have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander" and how the Hellenics were amoral? If you have seen that movie, you would understand that Paul was a gay man. He was a bachelor who lived with another Hellenistic Jew, also a bachelor called Barnabas. They lived together and were expelled from the town of Antioch because they were advising the young men not to take a wife and be as they were, free of women. (Acts 13:50; I Cor. 7:1,8) If you read the whole text of Romans 7:8-25 you will understand what I mean.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul's condition was sinful and, it was caused by the Law because as a Hellenistic Jew he either did not know that it was sinful or he never cared it was sinful or not. But when he found out from reading the Law that it was a sinful condition, he became a wretched man for trying to repress his sinful feelings that just didn't seem to go away. Now, what was it? Have you ever seen that last movie about "Alexander" and how the Hellenics were amoral? If you have seen that movie, you would understand that Paul was a gay man. He was a bachelor who lived with another Hellenistic Jew, also a bachelor called Barnabas. They lived together and were expelled from the town of Antioch because they were advising the young men not to take a wife and be as they were, free of women. (Acts 13:50; I Cor. 7:1,8) If you read the whole text of Romans 7:8-25 you will understand what I mean.

You bear false witness against the Apostle Paul.

How is it you lie so easily and say that Paul was gay?

Paul was circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; he was a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. He was a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, and studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law. The Jewish people all knew the way he had lived ever since he was a child, from the beginning of his life in his own country, and also in Jerusalem. They had known him for a long time and could testify that he conformed to the strictest sect of their religion, living as a Pharisee.

Philippians 3:5, Acts 22:3, Acts 23:6, Acts 26:4, 5, Romans 11:1.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn of Paul's Side

The Thorn of Paul's Side

Again, Paul was explaining in a very exaggerated way what it is like for someone under the old law without faith.

The old law was not based on faith (Galatians 3:12, but the new law of Christ is (Romans 3:27, 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2).

Jesus gave no new law. He came to confirm God's Law down to the letter. That's why he implied in his parable of the Richman and Lazarus that the only way to escape hell-fire is by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31)

 

[Ben Masada]

You bear false witness against the Apostle Paul.

How is it you lie so easily and say that Paul was gay?

Paul was circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; he was a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees. He was a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, and studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law. The Jewish people all knew the way he had lived ever since he was a child, from the beginning of his life in his own country, and also in Jerusalem. They had known him for a long time and could testify that he conformed to the strictest sect of their religion, living as a Pharisee.

Philippians 3:5, Acts 22:3, Acts 23:6, Acts 26:4, 5, Romans 11:1.

Paul was never a Pharisee because the Sect of the Pharisees would never allow Hellenistic Jews into their ranks. Hellenistic Jews were amoral. They had no sense of morality. Paul adopted Jewish Morality when he founded Christianity but could never get rid of his repressed homosexual feelings. That's why he became a wretched man for the rest of his life. (Rom. 7:24)

 

[Jacob]

It didn't help though. In this text above, James was advising Paul to camouflage himself in the Temple to make believe that he had nothing to do with the Jewish accusation from abroad that he was teaching the Jews to stop circumcising their children, to abandon "Moses" aka the Law as well as all the Jewish customs. (Acts 21:21) It didn't help as I said because Jews from Asia Minor had come to the Temple for that festival and recognized Paul and arrested him and reported him to the authorities and he had to appear in Court. (Acts 21:28) From that arrest, Paul never got free again. He appealed to Caesar, was taken to Rome, stayed in house arrest and died two years later. (Acts 28:30)

Paul kept the Law, including this that involved sacrifice even following Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection.

What he did not do was tell Gentiles they must be circumcised and observe the entire Law of Moses. There should be no issue here.

 

[heir]

On the contrary, Paul was living in sin and unable to get rid of his new condition caused by the Law. Since Paul could not get rid of the thorn in his flesh he decided to make of himself an exception to the rule not to serve two masters: God in his mind only and sin in his flesh. (Rom. 7:25; Mat. 6:24) He had to do that because he considered himself a wretched man without the strength to deliver himself from his body of death.(Rom. 7:24)

Paul couldn’t get out of (escape from) his flesh any more than you or I! We’re stuck with our vile body until the Lord changes it!


Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

And since you believe not the glorious gospel of Christ, yours will crawl with worms in hell!

Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul was never a Pharisee because the Sect of the Pharisees would never allow Hellenistic Jews into their ranks. Hellenistic Jews were amoral. They had no sense of morality. Paul adopted Jewish Morality when he founded Christianity but could never get rid of his repressed homosexual feelings. That's why he became a wretched man for the rest of his life. (Rom. 7:24)

Paul was speaking as a man under the law....carnal, wretched, sold under sin. He was not speaking of the man who had been delivered from the law. In fact, Paul wrote Romans chapters 6-8 just for the Jews who accused him of misrepresenting the law and it's purpose. I can see you still don't get it.

Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​