The Thorn on Paul's Side

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn on Paul's Side

Circumcision was no longer required after Jesus came and died.

Circumcision is of the heart by the Holy Spirit.

Nevertheless, after Jesus came, he was circumcised and after he died, it was only obvious that he couldn't. Circumcision of the heart! A circumcision that neither Paul observed nor any of his followers.

 

[Ben Masada]

The Thorn on Paul's Side

The scripture Paul preached is what Jesus preached when he was on earth.

Jesus never preached against "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31) The opposite was rather true that to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, Jesus implied that it was the only way to escape hell. Jesus never preached about the Greek myth of the demigod which was the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18) Paul did all the above and much more.

 

[Jacob]

Sorry, but it seems to me, you do not understand what you read. Paul used to teach to the Jews themselves to stop circumcising their children when he and Jesus himself had been circumcised on their 8th day of life. Paul had deserted Judaism forever. (Acts 21:21;

I personally believe that was not a truth.

Luke 2:21

 

[Jacob]

Right, for there were changes to the old law. The old law with it's changes is our new law.

This view retains the old covenant Law as a part of the new covenant.

I do appreciate you saying this. In being honest I don't know if it is true or not.

 

[aikido7]

Evidently, you are guessing instead of finding out from scripture.

Guessing is a waste of time, when you could look for answers in scripture and find out for sure.

I have yet to see any definitive textual evidence of what the "thorn" in Paul's side actually meant. Scholars have speculated and we can as well, but there is nothing in his authentic letters that points to a definitive answer.

We don't always realize that when we read Paul, we are only reading his response to the communities and churches he was in contact with. It becomes difficult to imagine the whole conversation as his letters only address what he thought that they said and did.

We are privy to a dialogue but the clues can only come from one of the participants.

 

[Jacob]

Right, for there were changes to the old law. The old law with it's changes is our new law.

This view retains the old covenant Law as a part of the new covenant.

I do appreciate you saying this. In being honest I don't know if it is true or not.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Hebrews 8:7-13 NASB - 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says, "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The new covenant is different from the old covenant, but I don't know how (I don't know in what manner it is).

Jeremiah 31:32 NASB - 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

Hebrews 8:7 NASB - 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

The people broke the old covenant.

The first covenant (the old covenant) was not faultless.

The Law is good, never the less.

Romans 7:12 NASB, Romans 7:14 NASB, Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 NASB - 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1 John 3:4 NASB - 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So we are not supposed to break the Law. But there is a new covenant.

 

[God's Truth]

1 - Do you see now why I said that the gospel of Paul is a gospel of lies?

2 - Another lie if you read Mat. 5:17-19.

Paul didn't lie. You just do not have understanding and you are trying to attack a chosen of God's.

3 - There was never such a thing as "an eye for an eye." The meaning was on the value of the eye depending on the person. A blind person still has an eye but it is worth nothing. How could it be "an eye for an eye?"

You are speaking nonsense lies. The Old Testament does speak of an eye for an eye.

Exodus 21:24
eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Leviticus 24:20
fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury.

Deuteronomy 19:21
Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

4 - That's an evidence that you have never read the Scriptures with understanding. Never in the History of Israel someone was killed because of adultery. The threat served only as a warrant or fence to prevent a woman to commit adultery.

You speak illogical nonsense, just so you can promote your false teachings.

5 - Of course you don't! You are not Jewish. Circumcision is not for the Gentiles but for the Jews.

Anyone could convert to Judaism.

6 - Of course you don't! You are not Jewish. Your gospel is the gospel of Paul, not that of Jesus.

7 - And I hope we will never have to return to it. Anyway Prophet Jeremiah said that HaShem never commanded in the first place that sacrifices be a part of the religion of Israel. (Jer. 7:22)

How could you ever get that God did not give Moses the commands to sacrifice animals?

8 - Neither do we. Perhaps you learned that from the Moslems.

9 - Gentiles never had to go to a Temple to worship God but, to become the Temple of God, I think you are living a delusion. Believe me for you are. I doubt that you have any idea about being a Temple of God.

You are in a bad place.

 

[God's Truth]

You are already giving signs that you can't uphold interfaith dialogue.

You prove you are not right in the heart and head when you speak lies about Apostle Paul.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus never preached against "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:31) The opposite was rather true that to listen to "Moses" aka the Law, Jesus implied that it was the only way to escape hell. Jesus never preached about the Greek myth of the demigod which was the son of a god with an earthly woman. (Mat. 1:18) Paul did all the above and much more.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. You have no idea what that means.

 

[God's Truth]

This view retains the old covenant Law as a part of the new covenant.

I do appreciate you saying this. In being honest I don't know if it is true or not.

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

 

[God's Truth]

The new covenant is different from the old covenant, but I don't know how (I don't know in what manner it is).

There are a lot of things the same,

The people broke the old covenant.

The first covenant (the old covenant) was not faultless.

The Law is good, never the less.

Romans 7:12 NASB, Romans 7:14 NASB, Romans 7:16 NASB - 12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.

The law was not based on faith.

It was difficult for a person to obey the old law if they did not have faith.

Even when someone tries to obey Jesus, if they do not have faith it is difficult.

1 Timothy 1:8-11 NASB - 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1 John 3:4 NASB - 4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

1 John 3:4 KJV - 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So we are not supposed to break the Law. But there is a new covenant.

We should not break any of Jesus' teachings in the new covenant.

However, if we do, we can find forgiveness and mercy.

 

[john w]

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Jesus changed somethings about the old law.

There is no more eye for an eye.

We can forgive people for moral type of sin such as adultery. They do not have to be put to death. We can find mercy and forgiveness through Jesus Christ.

We do not have to get circumcised in the flesh, or adhere to a dietary law.

We do not have to observe special days.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not have to do various external washings just to worship God.

We no longer have to go to a temple to worship God, for we become the temple.

Caught, in another lie, deception, as "always," does not mean "always," "everything," does not mean "everything," "all of," does not mean "all of," as...............

"we do not have to....we no longer have to":




"Everything Jesus says stands forever…. Jesus' words are for everyone.....We always have to obey God ...We always have to obey Jesus….........I obey all of Jesus' teachings....I follow all of Jesus teachings, exactly as he says…..Faith is obeying everything that Jesus says."”-God’sUNTruth


Wicked liar, actress.

 

[Jacob]

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

What is this change of law?

What is this change of law?

Hebrews 7:12 NASB - 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also.

 

[Jacob]

There are a lot of things the same,



The law was not based on faith.

It was difficult for a person to obey the old law if they did not have faith.

Even when someone tries to obey Jesus, if they do not have faith it is difficult.



We should not break any of Jesus' teachings in the new covenant.

However, if we do, we can find forgiveness and mercy.

law faith

Romans 3:27-28 NASB, Romans 3:31 NASB - 27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. ... 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 4:13-14 NASB, Romans 4:16 NASB - 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; ... 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Galatians 2:16 NASB - 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

Galatians 3:2 NASB, Galatians 3:5 NASB, Galatians 3:11-12 NASB, Galatians 3:23-24 NASB - 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? ... 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? ... 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." ... 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

Philippians 3:9 NASB - 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

 

[God's Truth]

What is this change of law?

The change in the law is we do not have to be circumcised.

We don't have to adhere to a special diet.

We don't have to observe special days.

We do not have to do various external washings.

We do not have to go to the temple.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not do eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and foot for a foot.

We can find mercy and forgiveness.

If you believe that God knew exactly what would be in the Holy Bible, and that he preserved His Word for us exactly as He wanted, then you should know that we have in the New Testament every command and teaching that is required for us to be in the New Covenant.

 

[Jacob]

The change in the law is we do not have to be circumcised.

We don't have to adhere to a special diet.

We don't have to observe special days.

We do not have to do various external washings.

We do not have to go to the temple.

We do not have to sacrifice animals.

We do not do eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, and foot for a foot.

We can find mercy and forgiveness.

If you believe that God knew exactly what would be in the Holy Bible, and that he preserved His Word for us exactly as He wanted, then you should know that we have in the New Testament every command and teaching that is required for to be in the New Covenant.

There are 1050 commands in the New Testament writings. What commands of God are part of the new covenant? Is the error in saying some commands of the old covenant do not apply today?

 

[God's Truth]

There are 1050 commands in the New Testament writings.
What commands of God are part of the new covenant?

I do not understand that question.

Is the error in saying some commands of the old covenant do not apply today?

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Jacob]

I do not understand that question.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

Jesus did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Does the new covenant have any additional commands? Or, what are the commands of the new covenant?

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Does the new covenant have any additional commands? Or, what are the commands of the new covenant?

You will have to get into that with the person you admired that counted all the commands.

 

[Jacob]

You will have to get into that with the person you admired that counted all the commands.

The old covenant or the new covenant?