The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[Aaron the Tall]

Why meaningless?

The Lord wanted to assure them that the nation would not be destroyed during the great tribulation or during the world wide harvest which would follow. In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this race shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.

Jesus already told them not everyone would be destroyed (Matt 24:22.)

He said that when he was describing what would happen.

According to your interpretation, if you splice vs 22 and 34 together, you would get something like this: "the great tribulation will be cut short so that not all the Jews die... and not all the Jews will die before this happens."

Seems a little redundant and unnecessary to me. I think your quote from Jeremiah is of a little different flavor. It essentially says the permanent nature of the sun and moon testify to the permanency of the nation of Israel.

However, according to you, the Matthew text essentially says "some things are going to happen to Israel, and Israel won't pass away before they all happen."

This seems like a pointless statement. If Jesus prophesies Israel is going to go through some stuff, and the days will be cut short so not all will perish - then obviously Israel won't pass away before it all happens - that goes without saying!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jesus already told them not everyone would be destroyed (Matt 24:22.)

He said that when he was describing what would happen.

According to your interpretation, if you splice vs 22 and 34 together, you would get something like this: "the great tribulation will be cut short so that not all the Jews die... and not all the Jews will die before this happens."

Seems a little redundant and unnecessary to me. I think your quote from Jeremiah is of a little different flavor. It essentially says the permanent nature of the sun and moon testify to the permanency of the nation of Israel.

However, according to you, the Matthew text essentially says "some things are going to happen to Israel, and Israel won't pass away before they all happen."

This seems like a pointless statement. If Jesus prophesies Israel is going to go through some stuff, and the days will be cut short so not all will perish - then obviously Israel won't pass away before it all happens - that goes without saying!

That's a good point. My answer is that the Lord Jesus knew that sometimes His people were a little hard of hearing so a little repletion would do no harm.

But I cannot believe that "generation" is the correct translation and I will tell you why. The Lord's words in Matthew 24 were in answer to the following question:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus had told us one of the things which will happen at the end of the age:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

The fact of the matter is that no world wide harvest has yet to happen. Therefore, the end of the age of which the lord Jesus spoke remains in the future.

It will not be until the end of the age when the Lord Jesus will return and the end of the age remains in the future. therefore, His return also remains in the future.

Therefore, I do not believe that "generation" is the correct translation in this passage:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

 

[jamie]

This is really very simple, the NT is about the kingdom of God which is Jesus' gospel. How many generations are we from the Father?

We must look at this scripture in a spiritual context, not a physical context.

 

[Nimrod]

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

So Jesus replied. From Matt 24:3 - Matt 25:46.
It was in Matt 24:34 is where your problem is. There are a bunch of things said AFTER "this generation" in Matt. But, we know, no matter what, you have a system to get it to work, Scripture must be twisted.

 

[daqq]

So Jesus replied. From Matt 24:3 - Matt 25:46.
It was in Matt 24:34 is where your problem is. There are a bunch of things said AFTER "this generation" in Matt. But, we know, no matter what, you have a system to get it to work, Scripture must be twisted.

The length of the Olivet Discoure you suggest simply is not true.
As stated previously it is clearly from Matthew 24:3 to Matthew 26:2.
And again the "punch line" answer to the question is the final statement.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So Jesus replied. From Matt 24:3 - Matt 25:46.
It was in Matt 24:34 is where your problem is. There are a bunch of things said AFTER "this generation" in Matt. But, we know, no matter what, you have a system to get it to work, Scripture must be twisted.

What Scripture did I twist?

Here is a chance for you to twist the Scriptures:

The Lord's words in Matthew 24 were in answer to the following question:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus had told us one of the things which will happen at the end of the age:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

The fact of the matter is that no world wide harvest has yet to happen. Therefore, the end of the age of which the Lord Jesus spoke remains in the future.

It will not be until the end of the age when the Lord Jesus will return and the end of the age remains in the future. Therefore, His return also remains in the future.

Therefore, I do not believe that "generation" is the correct translation in this passage:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

 

[Nimrod]

The fact of the matter is that no world wide harvest has yet to happen.

Are you able to see Angels at work?

Therefore, the end of the age of which the Lord Jesus spoke remains in the future.

This begs the question.
2 Samuel 22:10 "He(God) parted the heavens and came down"
Did God come down? Did everyone see it? Did anyone see it?

Isaiah 19:1 "See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt."
Who saw the Lord coming to Egypt? Everyone? Anyone?

Because you are unable to answer the questions above, you have no standing on Matt 24. Notice what is says above: Heaven, Clouds, Coming.

Now look at Matt 24
"they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven"

The end of the age IS the end of the Jewish age which happened in 70 AD. You assume when it is said God is coming down, you immediately think it is the Second coming.

 

[Nazaroo]

Wow! Reading this thread is like reading about Job and his 4 friends,
all completely clueless as to what is really happening.

(1) Shugart: (Post #1!)

"The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke." "the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know the time when the great tribulation would happen despite the fact that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which supports that false idea. "

(2) Shugart: (Post #11)

"The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke. Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation. I keep waiting for you to answer this and so far you have come up empty handed."

Mr. Shugart, are you SERIOUS?

And I'm stunned that nobody else knows their Bible enough
to respond effectively against this utter nonsense.

Only Daqq even notices this,
but he also gets it wrong and is completely ineffective in
smacking Shugart hard enough to cure the foolishness:

Daqq: (Post #18)

Shugart: "Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation." Actually the portion I have placed in red emphasis is not true either. The Master knew exactly to the day when the consummation of the age would occur, ...But of course Yeshua speaks of his own end of the age, (each in his or her own appointed times which only the Father knows).

"Now we know that You know all things,
and have no need for anyone to question You;
by this we believe that You came from God."
(John 16:30)

"Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under His own power,..." (John 13:3)

"Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him,..." (John 18:4)

Collectively, John's Gospel makes clear that Jesus knew all things,
because all things had been placed in His own power and control.

Jesus would never at the very end of His 3 - 5 year ministry have
left all the Apostles under such a belief, if it were a mistaken one,
or a misunderstanding. Jesus would have straightened them out.

Even in Acts when Jesus ascends to heaven, the Disciples ask (who? JESUS!)
about the restoration of Israel. If they had thought at that time
that Jesus didn't know, they wouldn't have asked Him.
Jesus responds "Its not for YOU to know..." (Acts 1:7)
He doesn't say "I don't know..."

Search the Scriptures, like the Bereans.

The Synoptic passage originating in Mark (13:32) has been mistranslated.
We have written about it before.
Matthew (24:36), copying Mark is not independent,
and translators following the KJV and prior translators have let you down.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation.

You assert that but you said nothing about the fact that the Lord Jesus Himself said that the "times and the seasons," have been put in the Father's power. (Acts 1:7)

The Master knew exactly to the day when the consummation of the age would occur...

Then how do you explain what the Lord Jesus said here?:

" But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).​

"Now we know that You know all things,
and have no need for anyone to question You;
by this we believe that You came from God."

At that time He knew all things which were knowable. At the same time He did not know whether or not in the future Israel would repent and turn to God. If the nation repented then the Lord Jesus would be sent back to earth after He ascended into heaven. If they didn't His return would be delayed:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

"Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under His own power,..." (John 13:3).

Yes, all things were put under the Lord's hands but evidently the ability to know the day and hour of His return was not among the things those things. And again, the times and the seasons were under the power of the Father.

Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him,..." (John 18:4)

By the context it is certain that His words there are referring to all the things which was coming concerning His arrest and His death and resurrection.

Collectively, John's Gospel makes clear that Jesus knew all things, because all things had been placed in His own power and control.

Yes, but later we read that the times and seasons are in the power of the Father (Acts 1:7).

The Synoptic passage originating in Mark (13:32) has been mistranslated.
We have written about it before.
Matthew (24:36), copying Mark is not independent,
and translators following the KJV and prior translators have let you down.

Where is your proof of that?

This from the "Benson Commentary" explains that in His human nature was not omniscient:

"It is said in Luke 2:52, that Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. He increased in wisdom, and consequently in his human nature he was not omniscient."​

You assume that He was always omniscient.

 

[Aaron the Tall]

That's a good point. My answer is that the Lord Jesus knew that sometimes His people were a little hard of hearing so a little repletion would do no harm.

But I cannot believe that "generation" is the correct translation and I will tell you why. The Lord's words in Matthew 24 were in answer to the following question:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Earlier the Lord Jesus had told us one of the things which will happen at the end of the age:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

The fact of the matter is that no world wide harvest has yet to happen. Therefore, the end of the age of which the lord Jesus spoke remains in the future.

It will not be until the end of the age when the Lord Jesus will return and the end of the age remains in the future. therefore, His return also remains in the future.

Therefore, I do not believe that "generation" is the correct translation in this passage:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

I have a little different take on those passages. I'll quickly spell them out - not to try and convince you, just to give you something to consider.

Hebrews 9:26 says Jesus came at the "consummation of the ages."
I Cor 10:11 says Paul's audience was living at the end of the age.

The Matthew 13 harvest was at the end of the age. Jesus said the fields were ready for the harvest in his day (John 4:35).

Consider the harvest parable in Matthew 21. The landowner sends his servants (God's prophets) to collect the harvest, but they were killed. Finally he sent his son (Jesus), but he was killed too. According to this parable, Jesus first coming was directly tied to collecting the harvest.

Jesus message in this parable was that the kingdom of God would be taken from the rebellious Jews and given to different people. This is the same idea as the Matthew 13 harvest. It is a dual harvest. The good plants are brought in to the kingdom, the bad plants are taken out of the kingdom.

The end of the age harvest is the gathering of the elect into a reorganized Kingdom with Christ as king - and the removal of unbelieving Jews from the Kingdom.

Consider again how the bad plants in Matthew 13 are removed from the Kingdom - that means there were people who were in the Kingdom, but were taken out of it. Can you think of a future end time scenario where this would describe what will happen? Who would be removed from the Kingdom at that time?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I have a little different take on those passages. I'll quickly spell them out - not to try and convince you, just to give you something to consider.

Hebrews 9:26 says Jesus came at the "consummation of the ages."
I Cor 10:11 says Paul's audience was living at the end of the age.

Paul certainly thought that they were living at the end of the age because he had been told that the coming of the Lord to carch up Christians was imminent. Henry Alford has the following to say about Paul's words at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 :

"Then, beyond question, he himself expected to be alive, together with the majority of those to whom he was writing, at the Lord's coming. For we cannot for a moment accept the evasion of Theodoret and the majority of ancient commentators (viz. that the apostle does not speak of himself personally, but of those who should be living at the period), but we must take the words in their only plain grammatical meaning, that 'we which are alive and remain' are a class distinguished from 'they that sleep' by being yet in the flesh when Christ comes, in which class by prefixing 'we' he includes his readers and himself. That this was his expectation we know from other passages, especially from 2 Cor. 5" (Alford's Greek Testament, Vol.III, in loc).​

The Matthew 13 harvest was at the end of the age. Jesus said the fields were ready for the harvest in his day (John 4:35).

Consider the harvest parable in Matthew 21. The landowner sends his servants (God's prophets) to collect the harvest, but they were killed. Finally he sent his son (Jesus), but he was killed too. According to this parable, Jesus first coming was directly tied to collecting the harvest.

Jesus message in this parable was that the kingdom of God would be taken from the rebellious Jews and given to different people. This is the same idea as the Matthew 13 harvest. It is a dual harvest. The good plants are brought in to the kingdom, the bad plants are taken out of the kingdom.

The end of the age harvest is the gathering of the elect into a reorganized Kingdom with Christ as king - and the removal of unbelieving Jews from the Kingdom.

The harvest of Matthew 13 is said to be of the world, not just Israel. The removal of the unrighteous is spoken of as being world-wide and that has not happened yet.

The "kingdom" in regard to the harvest is this one:

"Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all" (1Chron.29:11).​

 

[daqq]

Wow! Reading this thread is like reading about Job and his 4 friends,
all completely clueless as to what is really happening.

(1) Shugart: (Post #1!)

"The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke." "the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know the time when the great tribulation would happen despite the fact that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which supports that false idea. "

(2) Shugart: (Post #11)

"The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke. Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation. I keep waiting for you to answer this and so far you have come up empty handed."

Mr. Shugart, are you SERIOUS?

And I'm stunned that nobody else knows their Bible enough
to respond effectively against this utter nonsense.

Only Daqq even notices this,
but he also gets it wrong and is completely ineffective in
smacking Shugart hard enough to cure the foolishness:

Daqq: (Post #18)

Shugart: "Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation." Actually the portion I have placed in red emphasis is not true either. The Master knew exactly to the day when the consummation of the age would occur, ...But of course Yeshua speaks of his own end of the age, (each in his or her own appointed times which only the Father knows).

"Now we know that You know all things,
and have no need for anyone to question You;
by this we believe that You came from God."
(John 16:30)

"Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under His own power,..." (John 13:3)

"Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him,..." (John 18:4)

Collectively, John's Gospel makes clear that Jesus knew all things,
because all things had been placed in His own power and control.

Jesus would never at the very end of His 3 - 5 year ministry have
left all the Apostles under such a belief, if it were a mistaken one,
or a misunderstanding. Jesus would have straightened them out.

Even in Acts when Jesus ascends to heaven, the Disciples ask (who? JESUS!)
about the restoration of Israel. If they had thought at that time
that Jesus didn't know, they wouldn't have asked Him.
Jesus responds "Its not for YOU to know..." (Acts 1:7)
He doesn't say "I don't know..."

Search the Scriptures, like the Bereans.

The Synoptic passage originating in Mark (13:32) has been mistranslated.
We have written about it before.
Matthew (24:36), copying Mark is not independent,
and translators following the KJV and prior translators have let you down.

Seriously doubt anyone "smacking" the OP is going to change his mind here, (besides it is not my job to convict anyone but simply post what I believe to be the truth). Anyways you have not proven what I said as being anywhere near wrong because as you see the OP has already quoted from Deuteronomy 18, (even though I did not address this point yet) and everyone probably agrees that the passage quoted concerns Yeshua as referenced also by Luke recording Peter quoting from it in the Book of Acts. Thus, if anyone truly follows the Torah in his or her doctrines, and especially when it comes to defining one who is proclaimed to be the Messiah, then likewise the Torah applies to the one who is claimed by everyone here to be the Messiah. And the passage clearly states thusly:

Deuteronomy 18:15-22 KJV
15. The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
16. According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17. And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20. But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Note that not only does the bright blue highlighted in the above passage apply to Yeshua himself but also to the author of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua, (Yochanan the Immerser) and all other New Covenant or Apostolic writings. If the things which they said and-or wrote neither followed nor came to pass then they spoke presumptuously and I am commanded not to fear them or their words. Therefore it is not Yeshua and Yochanan whose sayings and proclamations did not come to pass, but rather, it is the false version of their words put forth by both the "Futurists" and the "Preterists" because like one another they both merely see two differing versions of all things according to the eyes and mind of the flesh of the carnal men which they are. :crackup:

 

[Nazaroo]

Note that not only does the bright blue highlighted in the above passage apply to Yeshua himself but also to the author of the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua, (Yochanan the Immerser) and all other New Covenant or Apostolic writings. If the things which they said and-or wrote neither followed nor came to pass then they spoke presumptuously and I am commanded not to fear them or their words. Therefore it is not Yeshua and Yochanan whose sayings and proclamations did not come to pass, but rather, it is the false version of their words put forth by both the "Futurists" and the "Preterists" because like one another they both merely see two differing versions of all things according to the eyes and mind of the flesh of the carnal men which they are. :crackup:

I understand your position fairly well, although it is subtler than
you are acknowledging.

I agree that very often its not the fault of the prophet but the fault of
the listener/interpreter/commentator/expositor when the word of God
appears to misalign with our historical perception.

You win that argument hands down.

I also agree that pretty much ALL basic schemes of interpretation
being offered to us through commentaries and denominations are
very faulty and unreliable, including the OP's presentation and all
the others so far presented in this thread.

The situation today for Christians and Jews is actually fairly simple however:

(1) Buyer Beware: Do your own work, and don't rely upon others' theories.

(2) Be HUMBLE: and Don't be cocky in your attempts to sort prophecy.

(3) When you are Absolutely certain of a point, be confident but patient with doubters or those committed to alternate views.

 

[Christian Liberty]

I definitely believe everything up to Matthew 24:34 already happened (and no, I'm not going to read a bunch of stuff from hyper-dispies that are inconsistent ultra-literalists and don't actually know how to do theology about why I'm wrong.) I lean against Matthew 24:35-25:30 being past, but I've heard some good arguments for that as well.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation.

You assert that but you said nothing about the fact that the Lord Jesus Himself said that the "times and the seasons," have been put in the Father's power. (Acts 1:7)

The Master knew exactly to the day when the consummation of the age would occur...

Then how do you explain what the Lord Jesus said here?:

" But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mt.24:36).​

"Now we know that You know all things,
and have no need for anyone to question You;
by this we believe that You came from God."

At that time He knew all things which were knowable. At the same time He did not know whether or not in the future Israel would repent and turn to God. If the nation repented then the Lord Jesus would be sent back to earth after He ascended into heaven. If they didn't His return would be delayed:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you" (Acts 3:19-20).​

"Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under His own power,..." (John 13:3).

Yes, all things were put under the Lord's hands but evidently the ability to know the day and hour of His return was not among the things those things. And again, the times and the seasons were under the power of the Father.

Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him,..." (John 18:4)

By the context it is certain that His words there are referring to all the things which was coming concerning His arrest and His death and resurrection.

Collectively, John's Gospel makes clear that Jesus knew all things, because all things had been placed in His own power and control.

Yes, but later we read that the times and seasons are in the power of the Father (Acts 1:7).

The Synoptic passage originating in Mark (13:32) has been mistranslated.
We have written about it before.
Matthew (24:36), copying Mark is not independent,
and translators following the KJV and prior translators have let you down.

Where is your proof of that?

This from the "Benson Commentary" explains that in His human nature was not omniscient:

"It is said in Luke 2:52, that Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. He increased in wisdom, and consequently in his human nature he was not omniscient."​

You assume that He was always omniscient.

 

[daqq]

I understand your position fairly well, although it is subtler than
you are acknowledging.

I agree that very often its not the fault of the prophet but the fault of
the listener/interpreter/commentator/expositor when the word of God
appears to misalign with our historical perception.

You win that argument hands down.

I also agree that pretty much ALL basic schemes of interpretation
being offered to us through commentaries and denominations are
very faulty and unreliable, including the OP's presentation and all
the others so far presented in this thread.

The situation today for Christians and Jews is actually fairly simple however:

(1) Buyer Beware: Do your own work, and don't rely upon others' theories.

(2) Be HUMBLE: and Don't be cocky in your attempts to sort prophecy.

(3) When you are Absolutely certain of a point, be confident but patient with doubters or those committed to alternate views.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I definitely believe everything up to Matthew 24:34 already happened (and no, I'm not going to read a bunch of stuff from hyper-dispies that are inconsistent ultra-literalists and don't actually know how to do theology about why I'm wrong.) I lean against Matthew 24:35-25:30 being past, but I've heard some good arguments for that as well.

What a stupid phrase...

 

[Aaron the Tall]

Paul certainly thought that they were living at the end of the age because he had been told that the coming of the Lord to carch up Christians was imminent. Henry Alford has the following to say about Paul's words at 1 Thessalonians 4:17 :

"Then, beyond question, he himself expected to be alive, together with the majority of those to whom he was writing, at the Lord's coming. For we cannot for a moment accept the evasion of Theodoret and the majority of ancient commentators (viz. that the apostle does not speak of himself personally, but of those who should be living at the period), but we must take the words in their only plain grammatical meaning, that 'we which are alive and remain' are a class distinguished from 'they that sleep' by being yet in the flesh when Christ comes, in which class by prefixing 'we' he includes his readers and himself. That this was his expectation we know from other passages, especially from 2 Cor. 5" (Alford's Greek Testament, Vol.III, in loc).​

Firstly, you are suggesting that the fulfillment of the ages that Paul refers to in I Cor 10 is the same thing that Paul talks about in I Thess 4. In my opinion, the only thing that links those verses is a theological framework, not the texts themselves. They are two different things, as I see them. I imagine Paul did expect to be raptured up to meet Christ in the air - but Paul's statement in I Cor 10 is a factual statement, not a supposition - as is the statement in Hebrews about Jesus coming at the coming at the end of the ages.

This fits nicely with the Matthew 21 parable which indicates Jesus came with respect to collecting the harvest.

The harvest of Matthew 13 is said to be of the world, not just Israel. The removal of the unrighteous is spoken of as being world-wide and that has not happened yet.

I'm sure you are aware of instances where "world" does not refer to every corner of the planet. For instance, Colossians 1:6 says the gospel was bearing fruit "all over the world". (almost sounds like a worldwide harvest of fruit). The same Greek word is used here as in Matthew 13.

Furthermore, my paradigm does not suggest the harvest takes place solely in Israel. While most of the early converts to Christianity were Jewish - the greatest growth of the Kingdom in the years ahead was outside Israel.

The "kingdom" in regard to the harvest is this one:

"Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all" (1Chron.29:11).​

Is this your response to my questioning who will be removed from the kingdom in the Matthew 13 harvest? Are you suggesting this "kingdom" is simply God's general authority over the earth? And not the Kingdom of salvation, which can only be entered by being born again?

If so, what exactly is this parable stating? That the bad plants will be removed from God's general rule of the planet, ie: destroyed? And then the good plants are brought into God's general rule of the planet from where????

 

[musterion]

I definitely believe everything up to Matthew 24:34 already happened (and no, I'm not going to read a bunch of stuff from hyper-dispies that are inconsistent ultra-literalists and don't actually know how to do theology about why I'm wrong.) I lean against Matthew 24:35-25:30 being past, but I've heard some good arguments for that as well.

You're also in favor of pot.

 

[john w]

What a stupid phrase...

Stupid is, as stupid does, Mayor...