The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[musterion]

You and Jerry should have a contest for which one of you can butcher Matt 24:34 more than the other.

I simply showed what's in the Greek text that is not in any English translation I'm aware of. So as I've said for the better part of a year now, your argument here isn't with me, it's still with the Greek.

There is a conditional statement there that overrides everything else Christ said about these events, making them all dependent upon something else. For a brief time, seeing the particle an and the subjunctive mood knocked you back and stunned you. Then you rallied and said it's basically meaningless because you cannot make it fit your preconceived preterist bias, but neither can you explain or refute it. So you write it off as if it's not really there. I think I recall you once saying people like Darby inserted it into the Greek texts. That shows how dishonest and wicked you really are.

So I reposted these graphics for the edification of others. Not for you -- you're a lost cause.

 

[User Name]

There is a conditional statement there that overrides everything else Christ said about these events, making them all dependent upon something else.

What is the something else that Matthew 16:28 was conditional upon?

(Matt 16:28) “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”​

 

[tetelestai]

I simply showed what's in the Greek text that is not in any English translation I'm aware of. So as I've said for the better part of a year now, your argument here isn't with me, it's still with the Greek.

You're making a big deal about a Greek participle that has no direct English translation.

There is a conditional statement there that overrides everything else Christ said about these events, making them all dependent upon something else.

No there is not.

For a brief time, seeing the particle an and the subjunctive mood knocked you back and stunned you.

Er, no.

It made me see how really desperate you guys are, and the extremes you guys go to in order to try and make a simple verse mean something it does not.

You guys do this because your Dispensationalism/Futurism falls apart when the verse is understood for what it means.

Then you rallied and said it's basically meaningless because you cannot make it fit your preconceived preterist bias, but neither can you explain or refute it.

There's nothing to refute.

There is no secret hidden word that makes that overrides everything else Christ Jesus said.

Do you even listen to yourself?

You're claiming some secret word overrides everything Christ Jesus said.

So you write it off as if it's not really there.

I'm not saying the Greek participle [an] isn't there, I'm saying it has no bearing on the verse.

Every English Bible translator agrees with me.

I think I recall you once saying people like Darby inserted it into the Greek texts. That shows how dishonest and wicked you really are.

I never said that.

Now you're just making stuff up.

So I reposted these graphics for the edification of others. Not for you -- you're a lost cause.

There's nothing in the graphs you posted that change what the verse means.

It's a really simple verse to understand.

 

[musterion]

What is the something else that Matthew 16:28 was conditional upon?

(Matt 16:28) “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”​

Good question. I view both passages as conditioned upon the same thing, but I'll ask you: What one thing was God's prophesied, overarching purpose for Israel conditioned upon throughout the four Gospel accounts and in the book of Acts?

 

[musterion]

I'm not saying the Greek participle [an] isn't there, I'm saying it has no bearing on the verse.

It's plainly there in the Greek, in at least TWO relevant passages...yet it means nothing.

You are of the Devil.

 

[tetelestai]

Good question.

He was being rhetorical.

He knows there was no condition in Matt 16:28

I view both passages as conditioned upon the same thing,

Nowhere in Matt 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13 is there any condition for the events prophesied by Jesus to happen.

Nor is there any "condition" for Jesus not to return before that generation all passed away.

 

[tetelestai]

It's plainly there in the Greek, in at least TWO relevant passages...yet it means nothing.

The graph you supplied says it cannot be translated with one English word.

Why don't you show us a translation from an English Bible that incorporates the Greek participle that you are so hung up on into the verse?

You are of the Devil.

You're the John Nelson Darby follower, not me.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Actually the portion I have placed in red emphasis is not true either. The Master knew exactly to the day when the consummation of the age would occur, (which is precisely what his talmidim asked him about in Matthew 24:3, "the end of the age'

The Lord's answer was indeed about the end of the age. And by His answer we can know that at that time there will be a world wide harvest:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

That did not happen to a first century generation so the following translation is in error:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

There was never a world wide harvest in the first century so the word "generation" is the wrong translation.

 

[tetelestai]

There was never a world wide harvest in the first century so the word "generation" is the wrong translation.

Jerry, since you like to refer to Greek words, the Greek word used in the verse is "oikoumene"

We find that Greek word in Luke 2:1

(Luke 2:1 ) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world [Oikoumene] should be taxed.

Oikoumene does not mean the whole world. The Greek word "kosmos" means the whole world.

The following verse shows the Greek word "kosmos" being used to actually describe the whole world

(Mark 14:9) Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world [kosmon], this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

The harvest happened in 70AD.

It happened in Judaea, not the whole world.

Unless of course you want to argue that the Mayans in Central America paid taxes to Caesar Augustus in 30AD

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Does Jerry apply "family" to every instance of genea?

Of course not.

Jerry is not consistent in his hermeneutics.
All of dispensationalism is this way. Inconsistent with God's Word.

I never said that there is but one meaning of the Greek word. In fact, I quoted many different meanings of the word.

In Matt 24:34 it specifically says in Jerry's interpretation.
"This family will not pass away until these things take place".
Yet, Jerry, being inconsistent, says the "family" will not pass away even after when the things take place.

The Greek word translated 'until' "has no exact English equivalent" (Strong's Greek Lexicon).

So your ideas are based on the idea that the word "until" conveys the meaning you want to place on it even though that English word is not equivalent to the Greek word.

 

[User Name]

What is the something else that Matthew 16:28 was conditional upon?

(Matt 16:28) “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”​

Good question.

He was being rhetorical.

Well, I wasn't exactly being rhetorical. True, I'm not aware of any conditions attached to Jesus' statement in Matthew 16:28, but I am willing to consider the opinions of others who think that such a situation does exist.

I view both passages as conditioned upon the same thing, but I'll ask you: What one thing was God's prophesied, overarching purpose for Israel conditioned upon throughout the four Gospel accounts and in the book of Acts?

Obviously, the overarching purpose for Israel conditioned upon throughout the four Gospel accounts and in the book of Acts was their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah. However, Jesus himself prophesied many times before this statement that they would reject him, and yet he still stated with absolute assurance ("Verily I say unto you...") that there were some standing there who would live to "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." So I don't see Israel's acceptance of Jesus' messiahship as a requirement in order for Matthew 16:28 to be literally fulfilled--unless you can convince me otherwise.

 

[jamie]

Every time the word "generation" is used in the Bible it refers to a specific group of people who lived approximately 40 years.

The word "generation" in the singular is never used in the Bible for anything else.

You have taken Jesus' information to his disciples completely out of context if you are applying "this generation" to unregenerate Jews.

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?" (Matthew 24:3 NKJV)​

The word "us" being his disciples.

 

[tetelestai]

You have taken Jesus' information to his disciples completely out of context if you are applying "this generation" to unregenerate Jews.

(Luke 17:25 KJV) But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Greek word "kosmos" means the whole world.

The following verse shows the Greek word "kosmos" being used to actually describe the whole world

(Mark 14:9) Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world [kosmon], this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

The harvest happened in 70AD.

It happened in Judaea, not the whole world.

Yes, and this passage is speaking of a world wide harvest and it will take place at the end of the age:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world (kosmos); the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

At Matthew 24 the Lord's words were in regard to what will happened at the end of the age:

"Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the age?" (Mt. 24:3).​

Since no world wide harvest happened in the first century it is obvious that the generation living then never saw the things of which the Lord Jesus spoke.

 

[tetelestai]

(Matt 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Who was Jesus talking to?

Answer: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees"

"This Generation" refers to the Jews who were the contemporaries of Jesus in the first century. Both believing and unbelieving Jews.

 

[tetelestai]

Since no world wide harvest happened in the first century

Jerry, I already explained to you that the harvest happened in Judaea.

Go back and read some secular history books that describe what happened to Judaea from 66AD - 70AD

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I find this a common occurrence on TOL...many people taking one connotation and making it the base of their dogmas. It's pretty sad that they disrespect all the efforts CREDENTIALED scholars put into the work of translating the Greek into English. Of course those scholars are OUT in the open and validated.

I did not do that. I never said that there was just one meaning of the Greek word genea and that meaning is "family." In fact, I quoted many different meanings of the word in my initial post.

Did you even read my initial post?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, I already explained to you that the harvest happened in Judaea.

Of course you do not believe the Lord Jesus when He said that the field is the world (kosmos) (Mt.13:38).

You even said that word means "the whole world:

The Greek word "kosmos" means the whole world.

Do you think that Judaea is the whole world? LOL

 

[tetelestai]

Of course you do not believe the Lord Jesus when He said that the field is the world (kosmos) (Mt.13:38).

When were a third of the angels and satan thrown out of Heaven?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

(Matt 23:36 KJV) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Who was Jesus talking to?

Answer: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees"

"This Generation" refers to the Jews who were the contemporaries of Jesus in the first century. Both believing and unbelieving Jews.

The correct translation is not "generation" at Matthew 23:36. Instead, this is the meaning:

"Serpents, offspring of vipers, how should ye escape the judgment of hell?...Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this brood" (Mt.23:33,36).​

The reference is not to the first century generation because the context is speaking of blood shed by people who were members of previous generations:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar" (Mt.23:35).​