The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[Jerry Shugart]

The preterists say the following about Matthew 24:34:

I have spent hundreds of hours studying Matt 24:34. There is a book written on just this one verse.

I have yet to see anyone show Matt 24:34 is a future event without twisting the verse into a pretzel.

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family":

"genea, a/j, Ion. geneh,, h/j( h`, Ep. dat. geneh/fi: (gi,gnomai): I. of the persons in a family, 1. race, stock, family, Hom., etc.; Pria,mou g. Il.; evk geneh/j according to his family, Ib.; geneh/| by birth-right, Od.; geneh.n Aivtwlo,j by descent, Il.:-of horses, a breed, Ib.:-generally, geneh,n in kind, Hdt.:-also a tribe, nation, Persw/n g. Aesch. 2. a race, generation, oi[hper fu,llwn geneh. toih,de kai. avndrw/n Il.; du,o geneai. avnqrw,pwn Ib. 3. offspring, Orac. ap. Hdt.; and of a single person, Soph. II. of time or place in reference to birth: 1. a birth-place, geneh. evpi. li,mnh| Gugai,h| Il.; of an eagle's eyrie, Od. 2. age, time of life, esp. in phrases geneh/| new,tatoj( presbu,tatoj youngest, eldest, in age, or by birth, Hom. 3. time of birth, evk geneh/j Hdt.; avpo. g. Xen" (Lidell-Scott Greek-English Lexicon).​

Now it will now be demonstrated that "family" is the correct translation at Matthew 24:34.

By the Lord Jesus' own admission the "times" and "seasons" have been put in the Father's power (Acts 1:7; Mt.24:36). It is not as if the Lord Jesus had been given a vision in regard to the time when all these things would be fulfilled. Instead, He was the Prophet described here:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).​

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

Therefore, the correct translation of the following passage is as follows:

"So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This family shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Mt.24:33-34).​

Of course the "family" refers to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob..

The Lord Jesus' sermon in Matthew 24 foretold of the "great tribulation," a time when Israel will be attacked unmercifully in an attempt to destroy the whole family of the Israelites. Therefore it would not be unusual for the Lord Jesus to assure them that they will not be wiped out and that they will continue to exist. Therefore, He told them that the family would still be in existence when He returned to the earth.

In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the family of the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the offspting of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this family shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.

The ideas of the preterists are based on the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know the time when the great tribulation would happen despite the fact that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which supports that false idea.

 

[jamie]

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family":

The NT is about two families. There is the family from Jacob given the Mosaic law and there is the family from Abraham apart from Jacob.

When God met with Abraham the man was an uncircumcised Gentile and God promised through Abraham all families of the earth would be blessed.

Today there are physical descendents of Jacob and there are spiritual descendents of Abraham.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7 NKJV)​

Descendents from Jacob are welcome to join those who are of faith.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The NT is about two families. There is the family from Jacob given the Mosaic law and there is the family from Abraham apart from Jacob.

When God met with Abraham the man was an uncircumcised Gentile and God promised through Abraham all families of the earth would be blessed.

Today there are physical descendents of Jacob and there are spiritual descendents of Abraham.

Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. (Galatians 3:7 NKJV)​

Descendents from Jacob are welcome to join those who are of faith.

What specific point are you trying to make in regard to my post?

 

[jamie]

What specific point are you trying to make in regard to my post?

Family.

 

[Nimrod]

Does Jerry apply "family" to every instance of genea?

Of course not.

Jerry is not consistent in his hermeneutics.
All of dispensationalism is this way. Inconsistent with God's Word.

In Matt 24:34 it specifically says in Jerry's interpretation.
"This family will not pass away until these things take place".
Yet, Jerry, being inconsistent, says the "family" will not pass away even after when the things take place.

Jerry how do you twist Scripture to make "until these things take place" to mean something completely opposite?

 

[daqq]

There are four generations to the first age of every man in Messiah like the four seasons of the one full year: autumn, winter, spring, and the summer of your harvest.

Proverbs 30:11-15 KJV
11. There is a generation [1] that curseth their father, and doth not bless their mother.
12. There is a generation [2] that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13. There is a generation, [3] O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14. There is a generation, [4] whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
15. The horseleach [5] hath two daughters, [6-7] crying, Give, give. There are three things that are never satisfied, yea, four things say not, It is enough:

Notice that the fourth generation has teeth of swords and jaw teeth of knives: these instruments of murder and war are of old time made from iron and likewise the prophet Daniel reveals by visions that the fourth beast of the carnal man has great teeth of iron, (Daniel 7:7). Notice that the fourth generation in the above passage likewise has a horseleach on its back with two daughters making the count seven heads. This is no coincidence either but flows through the typology of the written word. These things are first taught in Torah:

Exodus 20:5-6 KJV
5. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exodus 34:6-7 KJV
6. And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7. Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

This cannot be speaking a so-called "generational curse", as some believe and teach, because Torah itself makes it clear that the fathers shall not be put to death for the sins and transgressions of the children, and the children shall not be put to death for the sins and transgressions of the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin:

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16. The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18 teaches the same thing:

Ezekiel 18:1-4 KJV
1. The word of the Lord came unto me again, saying,
2. What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? [Jeremiah 31:29-30 New Covenant language]
3. As I live, saith the Lord God, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel.
4. Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezekiel 18:19-20 KJV
19. Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.
20. The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Therefore how can statements such as Exodus 20:5 be true? It can only be that there are indeed four generations to the first "age" of the man and in the fourth generation all of things foretold shall come to pass, (each in his or her own appointed times). These four generations of a man, (and seven heads) are made manifest in the Testimony of Yeshua, that is, to him with eyes to see:

Matthew 12:38-45 KJV
38. Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation [1] seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40. For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41. The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, [2] and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, [3] and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation [4].

Therefore when your Assyrian fig branch becomes tender and begins to put forth his foliage you know that the summer of your harvest is near, even at the door: And YHWH Tsabaoth shall lop off the bough with terror, and the high ones of stature shall be hewn down, and the haughty shall be humbled, and He shall cut down the thickets of the forest with iron, and the white heart mountain of Lebanon shall fall by a mighty one.

 

[StanJ]

Does Jerry apply "family" to every instance of genea?

Of course not.

Jerry is not consistent in his hermeneutics.
All of dispensationalism is this way. Inconsistent with God's Word.

In Matt 24:34 it specifically says in Jerry's interpretation.
"This family will not pass away until these things take place".
Yet, Jerry, being inconsistent, says the "family" will not pass away even after when the things take place.

Jerry how do you twist Scripture to make "until these things take place" to mean something completely opposite?

I find this a common occurrence on TOL...many people taking one connotation and making it the base of their dogmas. It's pretty sad that they disrespect all the efforts CREDENTIALED scholars put into the work of translating the Greek into English. Of course those scholars are OUT in the open and validated.

 

[tetelestai]

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "generation" is "family":

Jerry, you need to make up your mind

:juggle:

In the following you claim "generation" means "race"

The primary meaning of the Greek word translated "generation" is "race."

Next, you claim "this" refers to "you"

In my initial post on this thread I said the following about Matthew 24:34:

The word "this" is translated from the Greek word houtos, and one of the meanings of that word is:

"It refers to a subject immediately preceding, the one just named" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Next, you claim it refers to the people (ye)

The subject immediately preceding "this generation" is the people (ye) who will see the signs:

Are you sure you don't want to include STP's explanation where he claims "all these things" doesn't really mean "all these things"?

Or maybe musterions explanation where he claims there's a secret Greek word hidden in the verse?

Or maybe Danoh's explanation where he claims there is a subjunctive mood in the verse?

Or maybe the pat Dispie explanation where they claim "this" really means "that"

I've seen them all Jerry. No matter how hard you guys try, the verse means what it says.

The demonstrative adjective "this" modifies the noun "generation". When proper grammar is applied "this generation" can only describe the generation of Jesus' contemporaries.

 

[Dan Emanuel]

The preterists say the following about Matthew 24:34:

"This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

The Temple was destroyed within a generation, almost, if not, exactly.

Preterism doesn't work because the majority report from the historical record indicate's plainly that the Church did not interpret the event's of A.D. 70 in the way in which Preterist's explain. Its intractable. Its a fatal flaw that require's a story about a cover-up that rival's that of the X-File's Special Agent Fox Mulder. That secretly, Jesus told the Church to hush about His 2nd Coming already happening, and here we are today set to raise the curtain on this above-top Church secret? Are we supposed to tell the world that He already came? How can we do that when people see that we all still bleed? The 2nd Coming is the end of death.


Daniel

 

[Aaron the Tall]

The ideas of the preterists are based on the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know the time when the great tribulation would happen despite the fact that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible which supports that false idea.

So, are you saying that Jesus' point was that the Jews would not pass away before the things spoken of concerning the Jews would happen to them?

If so, I can't think of a more meaningless statement.

That's like telling your friend "God told me that such and such is going to happen to you." "When is it going to happen to you?" "It will happen to you before you die."

If God says it is going to happen to the guy, it is obviously going to happen before he dies.

If God says the Jews would go through a great tribulation, it would obviously occur before that "family" passes away. There would be no reason to make the statement.

For this reason and others, I side with the preterist on this verse.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The demonstrative adjective "this" modifies the noun "generation". When proper grammar is applied "this generation" can only describe the generation of Jesus' contemporaries.

That is why I changed my mind and now I believe that the following translation is the correct one:

"Truly I say to you, this family will not pass away until all these things take place."​

I have answered you and you have yet to prove that anything I said is in error. But your whole idea about this verse is based on the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know exactly which generation would see the Lord Jesus retun to the earth. You have not been able to answer what I said here:

By the Lord Jesus' own admission the "times" and "seasons" have been put in the Father's power (Acts 1:7; Mt.24:36). It is not as if He had been given a vision in regard to the time when all these things would be fulfilled. Instead, He was the Prophet described here:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).​

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation.

I keep waiting for you to answer this and so far you have come up empty handed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, are you saying that Jesus' point was that the Jews would not pass away before the things spoken of concerning the Jews would happen to them?

If so, I can't think of a more meaningless statement.

Why meaningless?

The Lord wanted to assure them that the nation would not be destroyed during the great tribulation or during the world wide harvest which would follow. In fact, this is not the first time that such assurance had been given to the Israelites, as witnessed by these words:

"Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: If this fixed order departs From before Me, declares the LORD, Then the offspring of Israel also will cease from being a nation before Me forever" (Jer.31:35-36).​

According to the Lord as long as the sun and moon remain in the sky the nation of Israel will remain "being a nation" before Him. So there is nothing odd about the Lord Jesus telling the Israelites that "this race shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled," especially with the great tribulation in view.

 

[jamie]

The demonstrative adjective "this" modifies the noun "generation". When proper grammar is applied "this generation" can only describe the generation of Jesus' contemporaries.

And since it applies to the resurrected Jesus, we are "this" generation. So far the Father has had only one generation of sons and daughters.

 

[tetelestai]

Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation.

Jerry, your "family" argument is a joke.

Get yourself a concordance, and look up every time the phrase "this generation" is in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

Each time "this generation" is used in Matt, Mark, and Luke, it specifically refers to the generation of Jesus' contemporaries.

Also, there are other verses that line up perfectly with Matt 24:34

(Matt 16:28) “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

(John 21:22) Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."

(Matt 26:64) Jesus replied, "You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God's right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven."

(Rev 22:7) "Look, I am coming soon! Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy written in this scroll."

(Rev 3:11) I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

 

[musterion]

It has been shown several times on TOL that Christ's foretelling of these events hinges on a conditional particle in the Greek that goes largely unacknowledged in all English translations; that IF a certain condition was met, the generation standing before Him would have lived to see those events come to pass. However, that condition did not come to pass, so that generation did not see what He said they might.

 

[tetelestai]

And since it applies to the resurrected Jesus, we are "this" generation. So far the Father has had only one generation of sons and daughters.

That doesn't make any sense.

Every time the word "generation" is used in the Bible it refers to a specific group of people who lived approximately 40 years.

The word "generation" in the singular is never used in the Bible for anything else.

When the demonstrative adjective "this" precedes "generation" simple grammar tells us it specifically means the present generation Jesus was referring to.

It's amazing how you guys try so hard to make a simple verse mean something it does not.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, your "family" argument is a joke.

Your whole idea about this verse is based on the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know exactly which generation would see the Lord Jesus retun to the earth. You have not been able to answer what I said here:

By the Lord Jesus' own admission the "times" and "seasons" have been put in the Father's power (Acts 1:7; Mt.24:36). It is not as if He had been given a vision in regard to the time when all these things would be fulfilled. Instead, He was the Prophet described here:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).​

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation.

Where is your answer?

 

[daqq]

That is why I changed my mind and now I believe that the following translation is the correct one:

"Truly I say to you, this family will not pass away until all these things take place."​

I have answered you and you have yet to prove that anything I said is in error. But your whole idea about this verse is based on the assumption that the Lord Jesus would know exactly which generation would see the Lord Jesus retun to the earth. You have not been able to answer what I said here:

By the Lord Jesus' own admission the "times" and "seasons" have been put in the Father's power (Acts 1:7; Mt.24:36). It is not as if He had been given a vision in regard to the time when all these things would be fulfilled. Instead, He was the Prophet described here:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).​

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

Therefore there is nothing in the Bible which indicates that the Lord Jesus would know that His prophecies would be fulfilled during the time of any specific generation.

I keep waiting for you to answer this and so far you have come up empty handed.

Actually the portion I have placed in red emphasis is not true either. The Master knew exactly to the day when the consummation of the age would occur, (which is precisely what his talmidim asked him about in Matthew 24:3, "the end of the age", or "consummation of the age"). Yeshua answers this question in the final "punch line" statement of the Olivet Discourse but I still have yet to find anyone without a biased paradigm that will believe what he says in that final line of the discourse. Most prophecy buffs seem not to even have the patience to actually read all the way to the end of the discourse, (in the Matthew account). Just read the discourse until Matthew tells you it is finished and you will see the answer to Matthew 24:3, (if you will receive it). But of course Yeshua speaks of his own end of the age, (each in his or her own appointed times which only the Father knows).

 

[tetelestai]

It has been shown several times on TOL that Christ's foretelling of these events hinges on a conditional particle in the Greek that goes largely unacknowledged in all English translations; that IF a certain condition was met, the generation standing before Him would have lived to see those events come to pass. However, that condition did not come to pass, so that generation did not see what He said they might.

You and Jerry should have a contest for which one of you can butcher Matt 24:34 more than the other.

Read the whole chapter.

Jesus told of many events that had to take place before He returned.

Those were the conditions.

All the events that Jesus said had to happen (the conditions) before He returned did in fact happen before 70AD.

Thus, there were still some people still alive from the generation of Jesus' contemporaries before He returned.

 

[tetelestai]

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

The Lord Jesus Christ most certainly knew He would return before the generation of His contemporaries all passed away.

Countless times in the NT we are told it was the end of the ages, the last days, etc.

Jesus twice in Revelation said He "was coming soon". John tells us "things which must shortly come to pass"

The writer of Hebrews refers to the first century as "in these last days"

Why do you think the gospel had to go to the Jew first?