The Preterists and Matthew 24:34

[Jerry Shugart]

When were a third of the angels and satan thrown out of Heaven?

When it is shown that you are in error about your teaching you never face up to it. Instead, you change the subject as fast as you can. Now address the fact that at the "end of the age" there will be a world wide harvest.

 

[john w]

When it is shown that you are in error about your teaching you never face up to it. Instead, you change the subject as fast as you can. Now address the fact that at the "end of the age" there will be a world wide harvest.

Vegas has it at 1/2 that, eventually, noTetesterone Craigie will fall back on his "Hail Mary," of "Darby...Bullinger...Don't you believe the bible?.....Dispensationalists want you to believe..................Not one dispensationalist can answer.....," spam, stumper, as his satanic "argument" gets picked apart, and dismantled, and he implodes, and goes into his crybaby/wimp routine....

 

[daqq]

The Lord's answer was indeed about the end of the age. And by His answer we can know that at that time there will be a world wide harvest:

"He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this age. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear" (Mt. 13:37-43).​

That did not happen to a first century generation so the following translation is in error:

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Lk.21:32-35).​

There was never a world wide harvest in the first century so the word "generation" is the wrong translation.

Did you read to the end of the Olivet Discourse where the author says that the discourse is finished, as I stated, where the answer would be found? It does not appear that you did.

Underlined Question:

Matthew 24:3
3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what is the sign of thy parousias, and of the consummation of the age?

Underlined Answer:

Matthew 26:1-2
1. And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
2. Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

These things are hidden in idioms, tabernacle-temple allegories, and sayings. For instance "the powers of the heavens" are symbolic of the four pillars from which the sky blue veil was hung in the Tabernacle. The sky blue veil represents the heavens which divide between the figurative place of God, (Holy Holies) and the earth, priesthood, and congregation, (secondary Holy Place of the Tabernacle). The sky blue veil had everything mystical in the heavens embroidered upon it with the only exception being the twelve signs, (because they are representations of living creatures). Thus the veil had the sun, the moon, and most definitely the seven stars-planets upon it. Yeshua therefore prophesies the renting in two of the veil when he states that the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, (the four pillars which held the sky blue veil) and the stars shall fall from the heavens, (because they were on the sky blue veil when it tore and fell to the earth from the shaking of the pillars which is also prefigured in Isaiah 6:4).

It is all at Golgotha: take up your own stake and go see for yourself.

 

[musterion]

True, I'm not aware of any conditions attached to Jesus' statement in Matthew 16:28, but I am willing to consider the opinions of others who think that such a situation does exist.

It's right there in the Greek. :idunno:

Obviously, the overarching purpose for Israel conditioned upon throughout the four Gospel accounts and in the book of Acts was their acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah.

Exactly right...from John, through Christ, to Peter, they were commanded to repent, and they had to do so nationally (Ex 19:6).

Follow-up question: did Israel, as a nation, repent unto Messiah?

However, Jesus himself prophesied many times before this statement that they would reject him, and yet he still stated with absolute assurance ("Verily I say unto you...") that there were some standing there who would live to "see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." So I don't see Israel's acceptance of Jesus' messiahship as a requirement in order for Matthew 16:28 to be literally fulfilled--unless you can convince me otherwise.

What other condition could there be, if not that one?

There IS a condition in what He said, as is the subjunctive mood in Matthew 24, as you've seen for yourself. But whatever it is, that condition was clearly never met since (despite Tet's delusions) those events have not taken place.

So if it wasn't the repentance of Israel that made the whole discourse conditional, what was it?

PS As a side-note, some say this - in the very next chapter - is what He referred to about some there seeing Him in His kingdom glory:

After six days Jesus took with Him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

 

[musterion]

When it is shown that you are in error about your teaching you never face up to it. Instead, you change the subject as fast as you can.

EVER.

 

[User Name]

It's right there in the Greek. :idunno:

Saint John W will not be pleased.

 

[musterion]

Saint John W will not be pleased.

:idunno:

 

[musterion]

take up your own stake and go see for yourself.

Torture stake?

 

[patrick jane]

preTeterists win - Jesus returned and all has been fulfilled. everything is finished, so preterists should just kick back and relax; nothing more to do or talk about -

 

[musterion]

You would think. But some of them slide into reconstructionism and theonomy in order to force the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom they say is already here. It's almost as if they can't live consistently with what they say they believe...can't imagine why...

Theonomists tend to be postmillenial and...well...of possible interest:

https://www.google.com/search?q=postmillenialism+preterism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

 

[john w]

"Yes, we are living in the millennial reign right now."-noTettosterone

"....we now live in the greatest time period since the creation of planet earth"-noTettosterone




"The kingdom where there is no more death, tears, and sadness exists right now." -noTettosterone

 

[tetelestai]

There IS a condition in what He said, as is the subjunctive mood in Matthew 24, as you've seen for yourself. But whatever it is, that condition was clearly never met since (despite Tet's delusions) those events have not taken place.

Jesus begins Matt 24:34 with the word "Verily", which is translated "Truly" in most modern translations.

The reason Jesus began the verse with "Verily" is to assure those standing there that He would return before all of them passed away.

There was no condition, which is why the verse begins with the word "Verily"

So if it wasn't the repentance of Israel that made the whole discourse conditional, what was it?

The whole discourse wasn't conditional.

Christ Jesus knew that most of the Jews were going to reject Him, and that the destruction of the temple would happen while that generation was still alive.

And that's what happened in 70AD. Not one stone was left standing upon another just as Jesus had said, and some of the men that were alive when Jesus was alive, lived to see the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

 

[tetelestai]

When it is shown that you are in error about your teaching you never face up to it. Instead, you change the subject as fast as you can. Now address the fact that at the "end of the age" there will be a world wide harvest.

The fallen angels and satan were cast out of heaven the same time Jerusalem was destroyed in 70AD

Josephus describes what was seen in the skies above as Jerusalem was being destroyed:

"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" " (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

As did the Roman historian Tacitus:

"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" - (Histories, Book 5, v. 13)

 

[tetelestai]

preTeterists win - Jesus returned and all has been fulfilled. everything is finished,

The "thousand years" isn't over yet.

Satan still has to be released for a little while.

Most of Revelation 20 hasn't been fulfilled yet.

so preterists should just kick back and relax; nothing more to do or talk about

You guys are planting trees in the Middle East, and setting rapture dates.

Some of you in the Midwest are even trying to breed a perfect red heifer.

Such is the life of the Darby follower.

 

[tetelestai]

You would think. But some of them slide into reconstructionism and theonomy in order to force the earthly manifestation of the Kingdom they say is already here. It's almost as if they can't live consistently with what they say they believe...can't imagine why...

Theonomists tend to be postmillenial and...well...of possible interest:

https://www.google.com/search?q=postmillenialism+preterism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

The kingdom of God is not of this world.

Christ Jesus, nor any other Saint is ever coming back to planet earth to set up a kingdom.

 

[tetelestai]

The correct translation is not "generation" at Matthew 23:36.
All these things shall come upon this brood"

Now you claim "generation" means "brood"

Earlier, you claimed "generation" means "family"

Now it will now be demonstrated that "family" is the correct translation at Matthew 24:34.

Was the temple destroyed in 70AD?

 

[john w]

Josephus describes....

You are a Josephus follower, who was a Christ rejector. But, then again, so are you, Craigie...."-After its own kind..."(Genesis).

Why do you follow the teachings of fallable men, Craigie, such as Christ rejector Flavey Joe? You taught us that satanic spam-we learned that from you.

 

[john w]

The kingdom of God is not of this world.

Christ Jesus, nor any other Saint is ever coming back to planet earth to set up a kingdom.

Spam. Proved satanic, 4 years ago.

Try again, wimp.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Now you claim "generation" means "brood"

Earlier, you claimed "generation" means "family"

There is more than two meanings in regard to the Greek word translated genea:

"genea... 1. those exhibiting common characteristics or interests, race, kind gener. as in Lk 16:8 eivj th.n g. th.n e`autw/n the people of the world are more prudent in relation to their own kind than are those who lay claim to the light (difft. GBeasley-Murray, A Commentary on Mk 13, 57, 99-102). 2. the sum total of those born at the same time, expanded to include all those living at a given time and freq. defined in terms of specific characteristics, generation, contemporaries" (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament [BDAG]).​

One of the meanings of the word "brood" is "a group having a common nature."

And that group is spoken of here:

"Serpents, offspring of vipers, how should ye escape the judgment of hell?...Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this brood" (Mt.23:33,36).​

Now it is your turn to finally answer what I said previously. Your whole interpretation of Matthew 24:34 is based on the idea that the Lord Jesus would know which generation would see returning to the earth.

By the Lord Jesus' own admission the "times" and "seasons" have been put in the Father's power (Acts 1:7; Mt.24:36). It is not as if He had been given a vision in regard to the time when all these things would be fulfilled. Instead, He was the Prophet described here:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him" (Deut.18:18).

The Lord Jesus had no special knowledge in regard to when the things would happen so He certainly would not be pointing out any specific generation of men who would see the signs of which He spoke.

Despite any proof to the contrary you continue to base your interpretation of Matthew 24:34 on a mere assumption. Where is your evidence from the Scriptures that the Lord Jesus knew the times and the seasons despite what He said here?:

"And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power" (Acts 1:7).​

The kingdom of God is not of this world.

Now you are being deceptive because I told you many times that the Lord said that "now" the kingdom is not of this world.

 

[tetelestai]

You are a Josephus follower

No, the writings of Josephus confirm the prophecies of Christ Jesus.

For example:

Prophecy from Christ Jesus:

(Rev 16:21 KJV) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

The fulfillment as recorded by Josephus:

" Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent , and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color"

I know, I know,..... it's just a really big coincidence that Rev 16:21 says hail the weight of a talent (about 100 pounds) would fall upon Jerusalem, and the fact that the Romans catapulted stones the weight of a talent that were painted white at Jerusalem in 70AD.