The citadel of free will is a mirage.

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

This is to you from my soul... All love to you... Truster... Brother that denies me and doesn't believe in my love for Jesus.

I believe in Jesus and I believe in His Love for you.

.................................................. ..................................

I would never call you brother while you are still in sin and under the dominion of Satan.

But... According to you... all are doing God's will. Don't give up on me friend.

Also... you just admitted that Satan has dominion on the earth. I do believe you just rebutted yourself and [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION] from earlier in this thread.

Mozel Tov

 

[Truster]

.................................................. ..................................


But... According to you... all are doing God's will. Don't give up on me friend.

Also... you just admitted that Satan has dominion on the earth. I do believe you just rebutted yourself and [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION] from earlier in this thread.

Mozel Tov

..........................................................................
Satan is the prince of the power of the air, but he is not exercising his own will, but the will of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will. Satan is a puppet and no more.

 

[Lon]

I would never call you brother while you are still in sin and under the dominion of Satan.

Yeah, but who is a brother or sister on TOL that I can go to and understand. At least you are eliminating the ones like me, one-by-one.
In ten years, I may meet your brother or sister in Christ on TOL. I still don't know who that guy or gal is, in your estimation.

I 'think' Our Lord and Savior is capable of saving to the uttermost those who are perishing Hebrews 7:25. I know you don't, but that's what has this conversation going, yet not really going

I'm not saying you aren't saved... but I am saying that your theological witness smashes the face of GOD and distorts His Glory into something bad.

:think: You messed up this quote I believe.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

.................................................. ..................................


But... According to you... all are doing God's will. Don't give up on me friend.

Also... you just admitted that Satan has dominion on the earth. I do believe you just rebutted yourself and [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION] from earlier in this thread.

Mozel Tov

..........................................................................

Satan is the prince of the power of the air, but he is not exercising his own will, but the will of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will. Satan is a puppet and no more.

Then you are calling the work of the Devil... God's work. This is where I'll cease for today... Not much else can be said on this matter.

You have said "more than you realize."

 

[oatmeal]

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
(19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


No mirage there.

Clear as a bell.

 

[oatmeal]

Joshua 24:15 KJV
(15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


No mirage there.

Clear as a bell

 

[Nihilo]

Hmmmmm... This is almost a middle ground. In light of God's Sovereignty... absolutely.

But... I firmly believe God authored "choice" and "free will" as a means and display of His Sovereignty and perfect nature.

Is that outside of your perspective, or pretty close?

The following single line taken from Text 307 powerfully sums it all up for me, perhaps we're talking about different things though, what do you think?

" Though often unconscious collaborators with God's will, [people] can also enter deliberately into the divine plan . . . "

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#302

The notion of "unconscious" collaboration is what won me over to the Catholic teaching wrt God's Sovereignty (myself being a fervent Calvinist for years), but that whole section on divine providence is thoroughly satisfying in its explanation.

 

[oatmeal]

There was no invitation to the people to serve Yah Veh...are you that blind?

It is clear that had a choice and that God expected them to make a choice.

God is smart enough to know that if a person is to make a choice, they have to have the ability to make a choice.

 

[oatmeal]

Mankind denies Messiah His birthright, by claiming sovereignty or freedom of the will.

Yes, they agree that all authority has been given Him, except in the throne of the will of man. At that throne, the Eternal Almighty is expected to bow down.


" Yea, hath Elohim said....?"


"Ye shalt not surely die".

So you are saying that mankind is more powerful than the messiah?

The messiah did what was necessary to make the gift of salvation to everyone, it is now the choice of each individual as to whether or not to believe to receive that gift of salvation.

God, having foreknowledge, already knows who will choose to believe, and since God acts wisely, He chooses, elects those who God knows will choose Him.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The following single line taken from Text 307 powerfully sums it all up for me, perhaps we're talking about different things though, what do you think?
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#302

The notion of "unconscious" collaboration is what won me over to the Catholic teaching wrt God's Sovereignty (myself being a fervent Calvinist for years), but that whole section on divine providence is thoroughly satisfying in its explanation.

Hmmmmmm.... I would say we are close... but a little different in perspective. I would say that we are so close to this matter that there is no need for debate.

I'm still seeing you as a defender of the Virtue of Jesus that never mixes Satan's darkness with His light.

:e4e:

Correct me if I'm wrong... or let the record spin.

 

[oatmeal]

Speaking of which, FWIW, Martin Luther in his Bondage of the Will argued that God's commands were, in essence, idle. That they are written only to show us what we can't do, and that God knew we couldn't obey Him when He wrote the Scripture; something deeply cynical and fatalistic like that. I think Protestants should know that better, so that they know the intellectual foundation upon which we stand, so that we can be careful.

Well, was ML always right? for that matter, are you going to believe men's commentaries on the truth or simply believe the truth?

If we cannot achieve God's will, then why bother with scripture at all?

If God already has predetermined who will be saved and who will not, why bother with scripture at all?

God has not predetermined who will believe, He has the foreknowledge to foreknow who will choose to believe.

 

[Truster]

..........................................................................


Then you are calling the work of the Devil... God's work. This is where I'll cease for today... Not much else can be said on this matter.

You have said "more than you realize."

Satan has no work besides what he is commanded to perform. You are a worshipper of Satan.

 

[Truster]

So you are saying that mankind is more powerful than the messiah?

The messiah did what was necessary to make the gift of salvation to everyone, it is now the choice of each individual as to whether or not to believe to receive that gift of salvation.

God, having foreknowledge, already knows who will choose to believe, and since God acts wisely, He chooses, elects those who God knows will choose Him.

Are you really that stupid?

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Satan has no work besides what he is commanded to perform. You are a worshipper of Satan.

There are many in this site that will be glad you said that. Again... I don't defame your Love for God.

I will leave you with these two thoughts...

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:

Satan tempts... if you are now saying God Tempts through Satan... James 1:13 is a lie.

Satan literally means Adversary... you are declaring Him "servant".

I would hope you understand that your comment is off base and fairly indicative of a broaken argument. It is one thing to call out demon doctrine... but to disfellowship as your brother and call me a devil worshiper... well... that's just not cool.

Sunglasses Truster... I'm putting on SONglasses and logging out for the day.

- EE

 

[Truster]

There are many in this site that will be glad you said that. Again... I don't defame your Love for God.

I will leave you with these two thoughts...

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:

Satan tempts... if you are now saying God Tempts through Satan... James 1:13 is a lie.

Satan literally means Adversary... you are declaring Him "servant".

I would hope you understand that your comment is off base and fairly indicative of a broaken argument. It is one thing to call out demon doctrine... but to disfellowship as your brother and call me a devil worshiper... well... that's just not cool.

Sunglasses Truster... I'm putting on SONglasses and logging out for the day.

- EE

You require the Almighty to bow to the erroneous doctrine of the power of man's free will. He will not and neither will I. Nice try at twisting the meaning of my words, but your lack of understanding does not make my words invalid. I refuse to speak peace to you for the reasons given in my signature.

 

[Nihilo]

Well, was ML always right?

No.

for that matter, are you going to believe men's commentaries on the truth or simply believe the truth?

The truth, is that the Lord Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.

If we cannot achieve God's will, then why bother with scripture at all?

If God already has predetermined who will be saved and who will not, why bother with scripture at all?

God has not predetermined who will believe, He has the foreknowledge to foreknow who will choose to believe.

OK.

 

[Nang]

God didn't create Satan EVIL!!!!

Ezekiel 28:12 “You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.

On the day that you were created
they were prepared.

14You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you."​

For Real?!?

Was Adam an Anointed Guardian Cherub?

Do you deny the many passages that tell us about Satan through Spiritual Revelation?

What is your basis for concluding this passage speaks of Satan?

 

[intojoy]

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV
(19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


No mirage there.

Out of context from Truster's point because Jehovah there addressed the nation of Israel as a national elected entity and not individually elected persons.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[intojoy]

Adam did not seek after God but hid himself. If it were not for God seeking after Adam Adam would still be hiding.


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[intojoy]

Speaking of which, FWIW, Martin Luther in his Bondage of the Will argued that God's commands were, in essence, idle. That they are written only to show us what we can't do, and that God knew we couldn't obey Him when He wrote the Scripture; something deeply cynical and fatalistic like that. I think Protestants should know that better, so that they know the intellectual foundation upon which we stand, so that we can be careful.

And what exactly was Martin Luther an authority on? Jews?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL