The citadel of free will is a mirage.

[Nihilo]

You didn't respond back with a scathing reply. I do believe we are on the same page here. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches on the matter of free will, including how divine providence bears on it. In brief, whatever God wills to come to pass will come to pass, and it's up to us to either cooperate willingly with Him, or not. But He is sovereign over all His creation and His creatures.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches on the matter of free will, including how divine providence bears on it. In brief, whatever God wills to come to pass will come to pass, and it's up to us to either cooperate willingly with Him, or not. But He is sovereign over all His creation and His creatures.

Hmmmmm... This is almost a middle ground. In light of God's Sovereignty... absolutely.

But... I firmly believe God authored "choice" and "free will" as a means and display of His Sovereignty and perfect nature.

Is that outside of your perspective, or pretty close?

 

[Truster]

I believe what the Catholic Church teaches on the matter of free will, including how divine providence bears on it. In brief, whatever God wills to come to pass will come to pass, and it's up to us to either cooperate willingly with Him, or not. But He is sovereign over all His creation and His creatures.

The Almighty is not subject to the whim of permissions of man.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The Almighty is not subject to the whim of permissions of man.

He is by HIS CHOICE! He is LOVE... He is not an ABUSIVE LOVER THAT DEMANDS.

This is not the ALMIGHTY... but it is how you are Making Him APPEAR. Are you forgetting this verse (1 Thes. 5:22)

This is the ALMIGHTY... (1 John 4:8)

 

[Truster]

He is by HIS CHOICE! He is LOVE... He is not an ABUSIVE LOVER THAT DEMANDS.



His justice and judgement is not subject to His love. Love is not a preventing attribute in the Almighty.

 

[glorydaz]

Hmmmmm... This is almost a middle ground. In light of God's Sovereignty... absolutely.

But... I firmly believe God authored "choice" and "free will" as a means and display of His Sovereignty and perfect nature.

Is that outside of your perspective, or pretty close?

Indeed, it was His sovereign will that man have the ability to choose. :thumb:

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

He is by HIS CHOICE! He is LOVE... He is not an ABUSIVE LOVER THAT DEMANDS.

His justice and judgement is not subject to His love. Love is not a preventing attribute in the Almighty.

Love can bare a sword of vengeance and that isn't evil. If I stab a guy that is trying to rape my daughter... that is not evil.

Justice is love as well, and God alone wields it perfectly and in Love.

You cannot remove Love from a single thing God does... or 1 John 4:8 becomes a lie... as well as all of 1 Corinthians 13.

 

[Truster]

I never take notice of anything someone says when they introduce a hypothetical "if".

The Bible says that if a man's daughter is raped(ravaged) it is because of the sins of the father.

 

[glorydaz]

Love can bare a sword of vengeance and that isn't evil. If I stab a guy that is trying to rape my daughter... that is not evil.

Justice is love as well, and God alone wields it perfectly and in Love.

You cannot remove Love from a single thing God does... or 1 John 4:8 becomes a lie... as well as all of 1 Corinthians 13.

:first:

 

[glorydaz]

I never take notice of anything someone says when they introduce a hypothetical "if".

The Bible says that if a man's daughter is raped(ravaged) it is because of the sins of the father.

:doh:

 

[Truster]

The greatest love of Elohim is for His glory.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I never take notice of anything someone says when they introduce a hypothetical "if".

The Bible says that if a man's daughter is raped(ravaged) it is because of the sins of the father.

Good... "if" you would discard the hyper system you are embracing and acknowledge 1 John 4:8 and 1 Cor. 13 ... we can move forward without "one of us" trying to argue that God is or can be... "evil".

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

The greatest love of Elohim is for His glory.

We agree on this point.

But... you are forgetting these words...

edit to come

John 8:54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’

And again...

Hebrews 10:22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

These 2 passages alone refute your stance in full.

Edit complete [MENTION=15467]Truster[/MENTION]

 

[Truster]

Good... "if" you would discard the hyper system you are embracing and acknowledge 1 John 4:8 and 1 Cor. 13 ... we can move forward without "one of us" trying to argue that God is or can be... "evil".

I have never said that Elohim is evil. He created evil for His own glory.

Elohim is Light and yet He created darkness. In your mindset He would not be able to do so.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I have never said that Elohim is evil. He created evil for His own glory.

Elohim is Light and yet He created darkness. In your mindset He would not be able to do so.

:doh:

HE NEVER CREATES EVIL!!!! You are basing that off of a twisted verse that is out of context.

You take the Devil out of the equation and equate Satan's Evil to GOD.

If I hire someone to kill someone... I am still guilty of that crime!

 

[Truster]

:doh:

HE NEVER CREATES EVIL!!!! You are basing that off of a twisted verse that is out of context.

You take the Devil out of the equation and equate Satan's Evil to GOD.

If I hire someone to kill someone... I am still guilty of that crime!

Satan and his fallen angels were created mutable for a reason.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

Satan and his fallen angels were created mutable for a reason.

God didn't create Satan EVIL!!!!

Ezekiel 28:12 “You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.

On the day that you were created
they were prepared.

14You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you."​

For Real?!?

Was Adam an Anointed Guardian Cherub?

Do you deny the many passages that tell us about Satan through Spiritual Revelation?

 

[Truster]

God didn't create Satan EVIL!!!!

Ezekiel 28:12 “You were the signet of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
every precious stone was your covering,
sardius, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b emerald, and carbuncle;
and crafted in gold were your settings
and your engravings.

On the day that you were created
they were prepared.

14You were an anointed guardian cherub.

I placed you;d you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

15You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created,
till unrighteousness was found in you."​

For Real?!?

Was Adam an Anointed Guardian Cherub?

Do you deny the many passages that tell us about Satan through Spiritual Revelation?

I didn't say that Elohim created Satan as evil. I said that Satan was created mutable and so was Adam.

 

[ClimateSanity]

The Eternal Son is far, far worse than anything you can possibly imagine. When He comes in judgement...

He Reigns. Always has and always will.

Which means he allows Satan a little free roam because he is the prince of the power of the air.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

I didn't say that Elohim created Satan as evil. I said that Satan was created mutable and so was Adam.

Define "mutable" from your perspective... please.