so what is in the holy place now?
the abomination of desolation
- Thread starter chrysostom
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Once again,
it's the abomination that maketh desolate, not the abomination in the place made desolate long ago.
Do details matter at all?
Interplanner
Well-known member
He wasn't referring to any of those three, Chrys, but to the leader of the 'rebellion that desolates', an expression in Dan 8:13 that became 'objectified' as the 'abomination...' and which was to have enacted that desolation at the end of the 490 years, and did by ruining the country and the temple in the revolt against Rome. That's why Paul refers to the problem as a person...in the Temple. He used the temple as a fort, garrison, encampment.
The most interesting twist of wording you must study is 'leistes' in Luke 19:46. Not exactly on target as vocab goes, but here is why so much is involved. It is 30 or 32 AD. He has just run out the 'money-changers.' But when he does so he calls them 'leistes' for doing so.
'Leistes' were revolutionaries (although the fund-raising wing), insurrectionists, brigands, terrorists. These 'Barabbases' were already at work for Judaism to rise up against Rome in the belief that a 'messiah' would both deliver and conquer for them. They were at work in the background, but of course the main rebellion was another 40 years out. Paul spoke of the evil son as being at work already in Thess, and to look for him at the temple.
Why would Luke (who was usually just transcribing Paul) do this--use a term so many years in advance that it almost does not apply to the immediate situation? Fascinating. Roman administrators reading Luke (see the intros) would be fascinated to see the distance this creates between Jesus and Judaistic revolutionaries. (btw, in 1972 the PLO tried to use this same temple scene to say that Jesus was a revolutionary like THEM!!! LOL)
Apparently the fact of having to come with pure (kosher) money just to worship was cause enough for Jesus to criticize the wrong kind of nationalism at work in the messianic movement. Maybe the exchangers themselves actually were raising money for a revolt--siphoning off cash. Lots of interesting practical possibilities.
Ben Masada
New member
What makes the place holy is the People, the Tzadikim and not the opposite. Jerusalem, for instance, was in desolation for 70 years until the Jews returned from exile in Babylon. And this time, about two thousand years and finally, Jerusalem is holy again. Many hordes of Gentiles tried to settle in the Land but somehow the Land would reject them till we returned and the Land has welcomed us back.
the dome of the rock is in the holy place now
Interplanner
Well-known member
Interplanner
Well-known member
There are really only 1.5 treatments of the AofD. The whole 1 is Christ's saying that it is the person in 1st century Judea who would ruin the place. The 0.5 is Paul says the same thing in Thess material about him. The AofD is referred to as a person, yet the phrase started only a chapter earlier in Dan 8 as the 'rebellion that desolates' (a few verses later the rebellion has a leader).
If our view does not basically follow that template, we have missed what the NT says was going on.
If our view does not basically follow that template, we have missed what the NT says was going on.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
:chuckle:
Interplanner
Well-known member
That shows that the modern situation is too confusing to come anywhere close to "literal" interp.
abomination of desolation
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the building of the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD.
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the building of the Dome of the Rock by the Umayyad Caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan in 691 AD.
The abomination of desolation is future
Ben Masada
New member
But of course! What did you expect? The Letter to the Hebrews was written by Paul. A Letter loaded with his policy of Replacement Theology. Paul could never accept that what makes anything hole in the Land of Israel is the People, not the place itself or any other non-Jewish people.
what do you think is in the holy place now?
beameup
New member
An archeological dig. It will yield irrefutable facts to the location.
The Temple was located in the City of David, 600 feet south of the so-called "temple mount", where Ornan the Jebusite's threshing floor was located, not far from the only natural source of water - Gihon Spring.
It's been "hiding in plain sight" for about 1,600 years now.
It is God's earthly Church.
The spreading of God's message of salvation relies heavily on the healthiness of the Church. The Church is more like an authenticated guardian of the contents of the Bible. It greatly helps to keep the Scripture contents intact and its interpretation correct, especially the message of Salvation.
Satan knows this as well. Satan thus will try his best to disable the functionality of our Church. To be more specific, Satan's tactics is to introduce what God hates the most into our Church and legalize the abominations. If one of these abominations God hates the most becomes legal and legally practiced, the Church will thus loose its salvation capability. Thus this abomination will cause the desolation that no harvest of human souls can be done, as it's not God who is sitting in the high seat of our Church, instead it's Satan who is sitting in the high seat of our Church.
A more specific example I can think of is homosexuality. It's a candidate of such an abomination once legalized inside our Church, the Church as a whole may lose its capability to save. So when you see from inside our church (holy place) that such an abomination standing in the place it doesn't belong, causing the depopulation of souls harvested, the end then will be very near. If our Church loses its capability to save, the purpose if the existence of planet earth will also be defeated. Then the end will thus come.
Rondonmonson
New member
From Daniels perspective, the Holy Place is the Temple of God. From Jesus' perspective this is the same, seeing as how he kept all the commandments. The Temple will be rebuilt, and I think scriptures say before the Day of the Lord (Malachi 4)God will send Elijah to turn Israel back to God. So the daily sacrifice that is taken away might very well be the worshiping of Jesus, we know all of Daniels decrees must be met before Jesus returns, and one is Israel turning back to God. The Abomination of Desolation is not really even understood, it actually means the False Prophet erects an Idol (Image of the Beast) into a section of the Temple. Daniel 9:27 when read in proper context means:
1. Confirm (Hebrew word gabar 1396) meaning to be strong, insolent.
2. Overspreading (kanaph 3671) meaning a wing ( a building) and edge or extremity a quarter of a building.
3. Abomination (shiqquwts 8251) meaning disgusting, filthy, idolatrous or an Idol.
4. Desolate (shamem 8074) meaning to stun, to make numb, devastate or stupefy.
So what does Daniel 9:27 actually say ? It basically says this, that this Anti-Christ will force (insolent) an agreement between himself and Israel, at the midway point in the final week of Daniels prophetic last 7 year period, he places a Filthy Idol of himself in a wing/extremity of the Temple (rebuilt Temple) and it stuns/stupefies all Israel.
Does this match anything in Revelation ? Of course it fits.
Rev. 13 says the False Prophet makes an Image of the Beast and demands all to worship this Image, or perish, and this Image is made to come to life.
The Abomination of Desolation as Jesus said, is something standing where it ought not. It is a graven image of the Beast.
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where did Jesus say this?
Rondonmonson
New member
In Matthew 24:14 Jesus tells us the Gospel must be preached unto all the World, then the end will come, in the very next verse he says this:
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
Then in verse 16 he tells them to Flee Judea when they see this.
It is an image of the Beast, an Idol, that comes to life.
Prizebeatz1
New member
Why wouldn't the abomination of desolation be the personality? It stands in the holy place of our hearts where God dwells posing as the true identity when it is in fact an imposter, an imitation of the soul. It displaces God and ousts our awareness of our connection to our divinity in favor of a pleasurable foundation that gives us comfort, stability and the illusion of control. We become so attached to it that we can not even conceive of ever doing without it. The result is dependence and bondage when our true nature is infinite freedom and liberation.
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SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Indeed, it's the abomination that causes desolation ,not the abomination that stands in place already made desolate.
Details do not matter to chrys. His interest lies in promoting his harebrained schemes.