Bradley D
Well-known member
I believe the prophecy predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70. What I was arguing was that the Bible does not specifically name the Romans as the fulfillers of that prophecy.
the abomination of desolation
- Thread starter chrysostom
- Start date
I believe the prophecy predicted the fall of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70. What I was arguing was that the Bible does not specifically name the Romans as the fulfillers of that prophecy.
Really? Where in the bible do you see that fulfillment?!
NONE of those verses implicate Rome in any way. In the past 12+ years I've been on forums, not ONE person has ever been able to quote ONE verse of bible prophecy implicating Rome in any way. The only reason why people still believe it today is because, "that's what they've been taught."
Mathew 24:14, the verse before the 'abomination' verse says...
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Well the gospel is still being preached and the end has not yet come. You guys would do a better job of interpretation if you would use the lexicons. Most of you are unaware that Mathew 24 has 3 different words for WORLD and 3 different words for END. If you would consider that in your interpretation, maybe you would see things differently. Those words actually DEBUNK preterism and pre-trib.
There are a few, but doubt most people would believe it. Most futurist say that Isaiah's prophecy about Damascus is prophecy fulfilled. I say it's not and could refer to Damascus past and future. Mostly future.
OCTOBER23
New member
What is in the holy place now? - THIRD TEMPLE
It causes desolation - "KABOOM"
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What happened to the temple place?
--------------------------------------->
The Antichrist sets up a Bomb in the Nation of Israel IN THE HOLY PLACE.
The Antichrist (SATAN) WANTS TO BLOW UP THE HOLY PLACE
BUT GOD TAKES -"THE ARK OF THE COVENANT " - UP TO HEAVEN.
WHEN JESUS LANDS ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings,
and an earthquake, and great hail.
It causes desolation - "KABOOM"
------------------------------------------------------
What happened to the temple place?
--------------------------------------->
The Antichrist sets up a Bomb in the Nation of Israel IN THE HOLY PLACE.
The Antichrist (SATAN) WANTS TO BLOW UP THE HOLY PLACE
BUT GOD TAKES -"THE ARK OF THE COVENANT " - UP TO HEAVEN.
WHEN JESUS LANDS ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven,
and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament:
and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings,
and an earthquake, and great hail.
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George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
I just showed you. Matt 24:15KJV Mark 13:14KJV Luke 21:20KJV
The fact that it was the Roman army is incidental but nevertheless factual. It could have been any desecration within the time period allowed by Jesus' prophecy.
The important thing is that a desecration actually stood where it ought not; in the holy place. That is the abominable part of "the abomination that makes desolate" the holy city.
But it had to happen sometime during the lifespan of the listeners. Matt 24:34KJV
The gospel was preached in all the world for a witness to all nations prior to AD70.
Please read Acts chapter 2 for the fulfilment.
God's Word remarkably interprets itself!
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Correct. Daniel did not call it the Roman Empire. We have the advantage of looking at history and naming the Empires how we want.
It was, however, during the period represented by the iron legs of Daniel's vision which we now know corresponds with the Roman Empire.
Blessings.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Paul says twice it reached the whole world.
The delay needs to be accounted for. Paul and Luke especially believed the final day of judgement to be coming right after the destruction of Israel. But Mark and Matthew allow for a delay and Peter affirms that and explains it.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Correct. Col 1:23KJV Rom 16:26KJV
More importantly, God was behind the saying of it.
The question is really, what was the judgement that was being talked about. Was it the final judgement at the end of the world? Or was it a judgement upon God's physical, national, people and the introduction of a new testament in which all peoples must enter the Kingdom by way of Christ?
Temple is spiritually our Church today. A prophecy can fulfill more than once, say, a physical realization in AD70 and a spiritual realization when the very end comes.
Desolation is the destruction of the temple, subsequently causing no harvest. Our earthly Church is the base of soul saving. If it's destructed, souls saved are expected to be greatly reduced.
Destruction of temple means the church changed its nature that soul saving through the Church may no longer effective or possible. The Church may no longer play the role for the salvation of humans. As Satan is worshiped in a form instead of God.
Abomination leading to destruction is most likely a false doctrine gets into our Church which makes the Church fails its primary purpose of soul saving. For an example, the legalization of homosexuality inside the Church may disable the Church from being a soul saving agent. It makes the Church a place where sin is legalized, Satan is worshiped. Christ is no longer its head. Homosexuality in this example is thus the abomination causing desolation.
God disallows something sinful to be in the Church, but humans decided to legalize this abomination inside the church. The church will thus lose its ability to serve God's salvation purpose. Satan/sin is put in the high place inside the church - the supposed Holy Place of God. This is the abomination causing desolation.
On the other hand, the whole purpose of planet earth is for human souls to be harvested. If the church lost its ability to effectively do so, the earth will lose most of its defined purposes. God/Christ will thus return.
Desolation is the destruction of the temple, subsequently causing no harvest. Our earthly Church is the base of soul saving. If it's destructed, souls saved are expected to be greatly reduced.
Destruction of temple means the church changed its nature that soul saving through the Church may no longer effective or possible. The Church may no longer play the role for the salvation of humans. As Satan is worshiped in a form instead of God.
Abomination leading to destruction is most likely a false doctrine gets into our Church which makes the Church fails its primary purpose of soul saving. For an example, the legalization of homosexuality inside the Church may disable the Church from being a soul saving agent. It makes the Church a place where sin is legalized, Satan is worshiped. Christ is no longer its head. Homosexuality in this example is thus the abomination causing desolation.
God disallows something sinful to be in the Church, but humans decided to legalize this abomination inside the church. The church will thus lose its ability to serve God's salvation purpose. Satan/sin is put in the high place inside the church - the supposed Holy Place of God. This is the abomination causing desolation.
On the other hand, the whole purpose of planet earth is for human souls to be harvested. If the church lost its ability to effectively do so, the earth will lose most of its defined purposes. God/Christ will thus return.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
These seem like wonderful sentiments but it places the subject of interpretation in the hands of anyone with an axe to grind. With this notion I disagree. This is where we depart from God's agenda by introducing our own.
Stick to what God has revealed and you can't go wrong.
Prophecies behave so.
The problem is, you can't always tell what is revealed by God and what's not, can you?
Wick Stick
Well-known member
There's a theory out there that the temple wasn't located where the dome of the rock currently sits, but rather at the south end of the temple mount, in the area where the ruins still sit.
Matches up with the whole "not one brick left on another" thing.
http://realtemplemount.com/
Wick Stick
Well-known member
I don't think it was the Romans, but rather the Zealots.
Before the Roman siege got underway, the Zealots had an insurrection in the city, and seized the temple, using it as their stronghold and base of operations. Look up "Zealot Temple Siege."
2Thessalonians 2:3-4 shows that the "abomination" was also a man, the "son of perdition." That would be the leader of the zealots, occupying the temple.
Jesus said when they saw the abomination, to flee to the hills. If the abomination was the Romans standing in the temple, then that warning wasn't very timely.
If it was the zealots occupying the temple, it's quite timely - just months before the Roman siege began in earnest.
Jarrod
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Disagree. The prophecies of those who were inspired by God and recorded in His Word are specific, accurate, and have fulfilment in kind.
Yes, one can. The Bible is God's only revelation to man. He and His perfect plan of redemption is outlined in it.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
Jesus' direction on timing was perfect.
Had the faithful (those to whom He was speaking) attempted to flee earlier, they would have been killed by their own people as traitors. Had they fled later, they would have been killed by the Romans.
The opportune time was when everyone had their eyes on the temple conflagration.
Interplanner
Well-known member
The expression started out as the 'rebellion that desolates' in Dan 8:13. This is what Josephus and Caiaphas (Jn 12, 18) were concerned about--that it would ruin the country. The rebellion had to be Israel's fault to be called an abomination; otherwise you'd have God destroying Israel for something Rome did. The Christians should have left anytime they could see that the zealots were taking charge, once the incident happened out at Caesarea in 66. If not before.
All departures would be perilous, no matter when they did it. However, there was an interruption in the war in 67 when Rome had so much conflict back at the capitol that Vespasian left off the war and Rome did nothing for a year. Some of them probably got away during that year. Vespasian ended up as emperor and his son Titus came and finished up.
Interplanner
Well-known member
Mostly good points, Jarrod, except that there was a one year delay in the war. Christians would have had some opportunities during that year.
But you are right: the Thess material was about the zealots that claimed divine/messianic anointing to fight Rome. John of Gischala was the leading guy of the three. We know that claiming to be Messiah meant to claim to be God in Judaism because of what happened to Jesus...
You showed me nothing. I asked where Rome was implied and you and I quoted the verses for you. Luke 21 may imply Roman armies, but to say Rome is responsible for the fulfillment of Revelation and Mathew 24 absurd.
Where do you find, not fabricate, BUT FIND ROME as the abomination in any of these verses...
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
The Jews misunderstood this passage just like you. In 70 AD most Jews expected the Messiah to return in glory when hostile Gentile armies surrounded Jerusalem. When the Romans circled the city in 70 A.D., many of the Jews rejoiced thinking the Lord was about to return. But it didn't happen.
It so easy to fabricate such nonsense, but another thing to prove it. Preterism is a fabricated mess and God hates it. How can anyone believe ROME is implied in those passages, and then linking it to the rest of prophecy is absurd.
I don't like preterism. It's one step up from atheism. That's why it's banned from some forums.
Atheist say there's no God. (or no evidence for God) Preterist say God doesn't have a prophetic Word because it has already passed in the first century. That's a prophetic cop out. It's so easy to say that prophecy has already been fulfilled and much more difficult to understand prophecy in the future sense. If I was still pastoring a church and knew there were a preterist in our midst preaching preterism, I would ask him or her to STOP promoting the lies. And if they didn't, I would do just what the Word says to do.....tell them to get OUT!
As opposed to what you read most places like WIKI, it wasn't the Romans who destroyed the city and temple. It was the CIMMERIANS AND THE SCYTHIANS who came from Asia minor.
I've probably read it more than you have. You need to read it without fabricating a bunch of stuff out of it. The two greatest fabricated teachings in Christianity are preterism and pretribulationism.
See what I mean about how easy it is to say things have already been fulfilled? The gospel WAS NOT preached in all the world, and it WAS NOT a witness to all people EVEN TODAY!. Let me help you with this. IF you would only understand that there are three words for world and three words for END in Mathew 24, AND ACCEPT THE MEANING OF THOSE WORDS, you would get somewhere. In Mathew 24:14 the word world is...
Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
World...#3625...
'oikoumenē' MEANS THE ENTIRE INHABITED EARTH.
The kingdom of God has not arrived, the kingdom is still being preached to all nations, better interpreted PEOPLE, and the END has not yet come!
END...
termination, the limit at which a thing ceases to be (always of the end of some act or state, but not of the end of a period of time)
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
If you ask anybody who knows anything about grammar, they will tell you that the generation Jesus was talking about was the generation which "shall see all these things." Jesus WAS NOT referring to the generation of his time. That's why they called it, "grammar school"! When Jesus said 'this generation' he was referring to the generation that witnesses the events Jesus already mentioned. I have never met a preterist who could explain how all the things Jesus mentioned in 47 verses of prophecy in Mt. 24 were fulfilled in the first century.
The word 'this' is another word people pay no attention to. The word refers to the substance of the preceding discourse. So what generation was Jesus referring to? It can't be the generation of the disciples, because they never saw Jesus return in glory as described in Matthew 24:30. It's no doubt the generation that sees these signs.
Mathew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
My 8th grade granddaughter can read Mathew 24 and walk away understanding it better than you. WHY? Because you've accepted the misleading teachings of preterism.
One more thing...
The questions the disciples asked were,
1. When these stones would fall.
2. What would be the sign of thy coming.
3. What would be the sign of the end of the age.
It took Jesus the rest of the chapter to answer.
One problem...
The stones have not all fallen.
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
These Words of Jesus...
See ye not all these things?
Included the massive stones of the Western Wall. When they fall, that's the first sign of 'birthpangs.'
Today there is "one stone upon another," in the Wailing Wall. The Muslims want nothing more than to destroy it and occupy East Jerusalem. When they occupy East Jerusalem and make the Dome Islam's world headquarters, I think the Wailing Wall comes down. That Dome area is an anti-Christ monument since it 'occupies' Herod's and Solomon’s Temple. This area is, "The Holy Place," God's only personally claimed piece of real estate on the planet. This is an abomination because within the inscription that surrounds the octagonal structure of the Dome are the words, "god (Allah) hath no begotten son."
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the jews know where the holy place is
and
they know what is preventing the daily sacrifice
Wick Stick
Well-known member
Throughout history, clearly they have a track record of properly interpreting history and prophecy.
Oh wait, it's the opposite.
the jews cannot build the temple
the dome of the rock is preventing it
the dome of the rock is preventing it