That won't happen. Don't you know? He is always right.
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- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
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That won't happen. Don't you know? He is always right.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In what sense are you using the words "being made alive"? Being made alive in what way?
In regard to your remarks about it being a forgone conclusion, are you saying that those of us who believe have not yet been made alive by the gospel? That's it's just a foregone conclusion?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
johnny, you lost fair and square so man up and live with it!
It took you how long to GOOG that "man up" stumper, kid? Or, watching reruns of "Friends," are you, "dude?"
Johnny, you quip, old man Jerry?Tough dude, are you "manly" one? Lack confidence? Your wife complaining? Yes....
Derf
Well-known member
:chuckle:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Of course you are...preaching babies are guilty of sin.
In fact, you're preaching Total Depravity.
Derf
Well-known member
In faith--which is the expectation of things not yet accomplished? Yes. That's why we "hope". Heb 11:1.
As opposed to being dead, not in faith, but in dread before it actually happens.
That's exactly what I'm preaching. Human beings are utterly incapable of performing any good pertaining to salvation. Only the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration can free us from bondage to sin, so that we may have faith in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Right, which is exactly why I reject the teaching of original sin. Original sin and total depravity are the same. If they aren't the same, then someone needs to show me how they are different.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
In regard to your remarks about it being a forgone conclusion, are you saying that those of us who believe have not yet been made alive by the gospel? That it's just a foregone conclusion?
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
I have adressed it more than once with you and in response all I have heard back is "nothing." The following will explain exactly why people die physically:
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).
Adam was created with a mortal body because for him to live for ever it was necessary for him to partake of the Tree of Life. And once he was denied being able to eat of that tree he died physically.
Since then no one can eat of the Tree of Life and that is why all people die physically. Just like Adam.
And all people die spiritually as a result of their own sin and not the sin of David:
"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).
Paul tells the Christians that they have been "quickened together" with Christ and that can only be speaking of "spiritual" life. So the death in the same verse is a "spiritual" death. Norman L. Geisler says the following about the "death" spoken of in this verse:
"Before a person is liberated to this new life in Christ, he is 'dead in' in his sins...Death means separation, not annihilation. Even the unsaved still bear the image of God (Gen.9:6; James 3:9), but they are separted from God. Cut off from spiritual life, they still have human life" [emphasis added] (Norman L. Geisler, "Colossians," in The Bible Knowledge Commentary; New Testament, 678).
Since all people sin and die spiritually then that means that all people were alive spiritually at one time or another. And the only way that could possibly happen is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.
That alone destroys the theory of Original Sin.
A person cannot be dead spiritually as a result of his own sin if he is born spiritually dead. After all, before a person can die spiritually he must first be alive spiritually.
Being totally depraved and being unable to choose to believe a thing is the error that is Calvinism.
In contrast, in Scripture there is a difference between being totally depraved and being able to decide to believe a thing is or is not so.
Demons are totally depraved.
And yet, they have the ability to choose to believe a thing is so.
Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
That passage right there contains at least six true beliefs said demons had been able to choose to believe.
That there is a God;
That Jesus is the Son of God;
That a day;
Of judgement awaits them;
That Jesus will be the one judging them.
Meaning, they believe He is Lord of all.
Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
There we see a "totally depraved" evil spirit able to choose to acknowledge Jesus' Authority, and that of Paul's, His servant.
And so on...
Rom. 5: 6-8.
So what you're saying is, you reject plain Scriptural teaching? Denying the doctrine of original sin (or total depravity or radical corruption whichever you like) is a heresy known as Pelagianism, condemned in the days of Augustine.
You did not address why people die, the root cause of death. All you've argued is "cuz."
No, people die because they inherited their daddy Adam's fallen nature-being under the wrath of God, is “by nature,” a condition received by nature, i.e., inherited from our daddy Adam.
Sin comes from within man, as Paul expounds in Romans 7, and is testified in Genesis-Revelation.
Why should we believe you, instead of the scriptures?
So the root, so the fruit. We sin, because we are sinners, from birth,from a reaction from what is outside a person, a temptation, or just what a person is thinking. The book of John tells us we have an enemy on three fronts the world, a world where death reigns, is fallen and under sin, and in the devils control(2 Cor. 4:4)), the flesh,which carries the sin nature, the devil, a fallen angel that is sinful, a liar from the beginning, and influences mankind to relish sin.
1 John 2:16 KJV For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Ephesians 2:2-3 KJV Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Sins have their roots in sin, the Adamic source, in the heart that influences the intellect and will and ultimately finds its expression through the body when we follow though with the desire. Survey Matthew 15:19-20 KJV, Luke 6:45 KJV, Hebrews 3:12 KJV, James1:14-15 KJV......................... The sin nature is the basis for sins/transgressions, and it is not a single act, but a process, a cancer, that spreads, having its beginning in the Jeremiah 17:9 desperately wicked heart, from birth, are that begins in our heart. It's called heart disease, the symptoms of the sin nature.
Why don't you believe the scriptures, kid?
The kid: An apple tree/person becomes an apple tree/sinner, when it produces apples/sins.
Made up.
"....but every man a liar;"-Romans 3:4 KJV
We lie, because we are liars.
The Kid: We become liars, when we lie.
Why should we believe you, instead of Paul?
As D pointed out, hypocrite, you assert that all die because GOD cut off access to the tree of life to ALL-that includes babies..
Whenever a poster employs that "That alone destroys (fill in the blank)gimmick, you know that he has NADA.
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
People die physically because they do not have access to the Tree of Life.
People die spiritually when they sin.
All people have free will and sooner or later all people decide to go their own way and not the LORD's way and they knowingly sin.
I know that it comforts you to think that you can blame Adam for your sins but sooner or later you will have to take full responsibility for your sins. I never again want to hear you saying, "The devil made me do it!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SLifea3NHQ
Derf
Well-known member
Your "aliveness" is not a permanent condition, if we're talking about a physical death. But since that death is also not going to be a permanent condition, you don't face the same kind of death (the permanent kind). Thus, you could be considered to be made alive by the gospel, even though you weren't dead yet, and even though you are still going to die.
The foregone conclusion has changed based on whom you are in. If in Adam, the foregone conclusion is death. If in Christ, the foregone conclusion is life.
You have moved from death to life. John 5:24
No, people die because they inherited their daddy Adam's fallen nature-being under the wrath of God, is “by nature,” a condition received by nature, i.e., inherited from our daddy Adam.
Sin comes from within man, as Paul expounds in Romans 7, and is testified in Genesis-Revelation.
Why should we believe you, instead of the scriptures?
I don't blame Adam for my sins. That is one of the points of Genesis-Revelation-we would have done the same thing. It is not a problem with God, as you say, but with man.
And, that is one of the positive aspects of the dispensational approach, i.e., man is tested, man fails, God is vindicated, for His glory. We would have all sinned/failed, just like all mankind did, in the book, including the nation Israel.
Romans 3 KJV
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Shut your mouth, kid, as you are guilty, as charged, when you were born, not only in what you do, but do not do, in what you think, and in your failure in thinking like the LORD God.
We inherit a sin nature, we are imputed sin, Romans 5:12 KJV, under its power(Likewise, we are imputed the righteousness of God when justified), and we commit individual sins, as we come short of the glory of God.
No, only Adam, who was created in God's image/likeness(Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 9:6 KJV), died spiritually when he sinned. His protege, us, per Genesis 5:3 KJV, are born in Adam's own likeness, and after his image=we get his fallen nature.
We are spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins, by nature, on "day uno," because of our daddy Gomez,by nature the children of wrath, under its corrupting power/dominion, from day 1...
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
After daddy Adam sinned, he and his descendants could only beget sinners,"after his own kind," so all men are under the sentence of death, the penalty of sin...Survey Hebrews. 7:9-10 KJV, others, for imputation doctrine....
Why should we believe you, instead of Paul?
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Funny video.
At the same time, leave it to you not to see that the exact same circular reasoning within its own vacuum that Flip was making all that hilarity about, is your exact same circular reasoning - within your vacuum.
"If it weren't for" that, "you" too, Jerry, "would be out of a job..."
:chuckle:
Rom. 5: 6-8.