ECT Suggestion to Knight

[glorydaz]

Exactly.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

Those verses don't say Adam's sin is passed down. The fact that all men sin still doesn't address this issue. There is a time of innocence, before we choose evil over good.

Isaiah 7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.​

 

[glorydaz]

Yes. Another thread. I am known as one of the staunchest opponents of TULIP, the lynch pin of it being TOTAL (my emphasis)depravity.But, then again, I am known for hijacking threads!

You're known for many things, John.....infamous is the word. :chuckle:

 

[john w]

Might explain why Adam said the following without the mention of blood.

Genesis 2 KJV
(23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Correct-Adam had no blood,"pre-fall." I believe he had the Spirit of God, which will be realized in the future, as we will in our redeemed, yes, spiritual bodies,"the redemption ofthe body," with the ability not to sin, as will the believing remnant of the nation of Israel, as part of the spiritual blessings/benefits of the New Covenant, promised them, as they will have resurrected, "Spirit of God filled" bodies, explaining such passages as....


Ezekiel 36 KJV

21 But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the heathen, whither they went.

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


....w/o having to spin it, as most do, asserting that it is happening today, as the NC is in effect.


Blood is bad!!

Hence:


1 Corinthians 15:50 KJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Affirmed:

Luke 24:39 KJV Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.


Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.


Details...

 

[Tambora]

That's what I say.... Something isn't right in Denmark.

And this...

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Yes, and ....

Acts 2 KJV
(30) Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him [David], that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;


2 Samuel 7 KJV
(12) And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
(13) He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

 

[glorydaz]

How is it total depravity gives anyone an excuse? As Paul says in Romans 5:18, our corruption leaves us condemned before God. Total depravity does not mean that anyone has any excuse. The Scriptures do not teach that we have no moral guilt because we are sinners from birth. The Scriptures teach that we stand condemned along with Adam. The only salvation from that condemnation comes through the work of Christ to make atonement for His elect.

Here's why man has no excuse. He was created with the knowledge of God in him, and given a conscience to know right from wrong. He wasn't born with a sin nature, but he was born with a free will. Man has no excuse, such as a sin nature inherited from Adam. Rather, they were unthankful, BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS. Nothing about being born that way.

Romans 1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

These are choices men make. Many men make good choices (Noah, Job, and Daniel come to mind). They are not depraved or even evil. This idea that men cannot seek God or hear God is what gives men an excuse, and that's what you're claiming.

 

[Tambora]

Blood is bad!!

When Jesus was born from the womb of Mary, He had blood.

 

[tdhiggins]

Here's why man has no excuse. He was created with the knowledge of God in him, and given a conscience to know right from wrong. He wasn't born with a sin nature, but he was born with a free will. Man has no excuse, such as a sin nature inherited from Adam. Rather, they were unthankful, BECAME VAIN IN THEIR IMAGINATIONS. Nothing about being born that way.

Romans 1:19-22 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,​

These are choices men make. Many men make good choices (Noah, Job, and Daniel come to mind). They are not depraved or even evil. This idea that men cannot seek God or hear God is what gives men an excuse, and that's what you're claiming.

You are putting words in my mouth. The Bible plainly asserts that ALL people are condemned because of their union with Adam. The problem that you have with this teaching is your own philosophical issues. You put the ethical philosophy of men on par with Scripture. I do not. The Bible says that Adam’s sin les to the condemnation of all. The Bible also says that all people are guilty before God, and the only remedy is the work of Christ.

I fully believe in free will. You are free to do what your will desires. However, after the fall, man’s will was so altered that it is incapable of doing any moral good pertaining to salvation. Sure, naturally one can do good deeds. But these goods deeds are still tainted by the sinful nature of man. Good deeds are not enough to save anyone.

The great problem is not that people sin. The great problem is that people are sinful. That is, by nature we are children of wrath.

 

[john w]

When Jesus was born from the womb of Mary, He had blood.

Oh. But his "daddy" was the Holy Spirit, not Adam.....No sin nature...And He "shed" it.....Later, no blood.....Later, resurrected with flesh and bone, like Adam had, "pre-fall".....Reversed what Adam had lost....


Acts 3:21 KJV Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

First Adam...Last Adam...


You know that.



Miller time, as I bow out of this thread, as the kid is starting to bore me. Besides, he is always right.

 

[glorydaz]

You are putting words in my mouth. The Bible plainly asserts that ALL people are condemned because of their union with Adam.

No, the Bible doesn't plainly say any such thing. The Bible says, "sin entered the world"....not into all the sons of Adam. I realize lots of people read those verses to fit their personal beliefs, but you have to read into what is not there.

The problem that you have with this teaching is your own philosophical issues.

No, that's your problem.

You put the ethical philosophy of men on par with Scripture. I do not.

You put the teachings of Augustine and others on the par with Scripture. I do not.

The Bible says that Adam’s sin les to the condemnation of all.

Yep, but you say it's because sin entered into the sons of Adam, and I say it's because sin entered the world.

The Bible also says that all people are guilty before God, and the only remedy is the work of Christ.

Yep, everyone ends up sinning in this corrupted world of sin, but that doesn't mean we were saddled with Adam's sin.

I fully believe in free will. You are free to do what your will desires. However, after the fall, man’s will was so altered that it is incapable of doing any moral good pertaining to salvation. Sure, naturally one can do good deeds. But these goods deeds are still tainted by the sinful nature of man. Good deeds are not enough to save anyone.

The great problem is not that people sin. The great problem is that people are sinful. That is, by nature we are children of wrath.

By nature we are exactly like Adam....human beings. He sinned exactly like we do. You can't pick and choose scripture to prove your point. There is more...

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

 

[tdhiggins]

No, the Bible doesn't plainly say any such thing. The Bible says, "sin entered the world"....not into all the sons of Adam. I realize lots of people read those verses to fit their personal beliefs, but you have to read into what is not there.


You’re refusing to acknowledge Romans 5:18.


No, that's your problem.



You put the teachings of Augustine and others on the par with Scripture. I do not.





Yep, but you say it's because sin entered into the sons of Adam, and I say it's because sin entered the world.



Yep, everyone ends up sinning in this corrupted world of sin, but that doesn't mean we were saddled with Adam's sin.



By nature we are exactly like Adam....human beings. He sinned exactly like we do. You can't pick and choose scripture to prove your point. There is more...

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:​

 

[Derf]

I just have a difficult time believing that, especially considering what the Lord Jesus said here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

And here:

"“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

First we see that His words bring spiritual life and in the second verse we see that those who believe are passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.

I see no evidence that the "death" and "life" were postponed or did not happen then and there.

What about the judgment? Was it then and there? It certainly is not, as Jesus said "will not be judged."

And why are His words "life" in the first verse? Your second verse tells us that because of them, "whoever" will not be judged. That is a future tense verb, not a past tense verb. Jesus was saying that because of something that happens now (belief in His words) a future reality has been constructed (no judgment). And what does judgment bring? penalty. What is the penalty? death.

It seems the two concepts Jesus talked about--eternal life and no judgment--are related to each other. So a lack of future judgment, to see if a future death is necessary for penalty, means a lack of that future death.

Your 2nd verse was clearly supporting a future fulfillment of Jesus' words. But we can take much comfort in the promise, and count ourselves as having already received the promise of everlasting life, even though we will likely die--it won't be permanent.

I don't think any of that needs an abstract "spiritual death" concept.

 

[Derf]

[MENTION=20666]tdhiggins[/MENTION]

If you want to intersperse your comments into someone's post that you're quoting, use [/quote]your text

. That will end each snippet of their text, leave yours looking like original text, and start the next snippet of theirs as a quote again.

And whatever you do, don't let disagreement get to you--it's going to happen, and not always politely. But we can uphold a high standard, even if not everybody does.

 

[glorydaz]

........

I see you meant to say I'm refusing to acknowledge Romans 5:18. I'm not, and if you read it more carefully, you might see what is actually being said.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.​

So what is Paul talking about? Death reigning because of Adam's disobedience. (All die even those who had not sinned like Adam). A sentence of condemnation TO DEATH, with no hope at all of a resurrection. Compared to the obedience of Christ, which caused that sentence to be so greatly reversed that death will not finally triumph.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Christ was also a son of man (Adam).
If all that descended from the loins of Adam were tainted with sin in the womb, then ..........

Jesus' human nature is just like ours, that is like ours was meant to be when Adam was unfallen, righteous and obedient. In our flesh, Jesus had to endure the environment that our sin created; even though he was sinless. In that sense, he was a "fish out of water;" but the environment doesn't make a man what he is, only makes him cope with its effect. Our Lord was a righteous man, uncorrupted (clean) and incorruptible. He would speak—not as Isaiah confessed in Isa. 6:5—as a man of clean lips amid a world of the unclean.

AMR

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus' human nature is just like ours, that is like ours was meant to be when Adam was unfallen, righteous and obedient. In our flesh, Jesus had to endure the environment that our sin created; even though he was sinless. In that sense, he was a "fish out of water;" but the environment doesn't make a man what he is, only makes him cope with its effect. Our Lord was a righteous man, uncorrupted (clean) and incorruptible. He would speak—not as Isaiah confessed in Isa. 6:5—as a man of clean lips amid a world of the unclean.

AMR

Yep, a human nature.

Adam had the same nature, but he chose to disobey God.

Jesus knew what we don't, and even what Adam didn't know.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

@tdhiggins

If you want to intersperse your comments into someone's post that you're quoting,

@tdhiggins

In other words, using the beginning and ending quote tags properly...

[QUOTE="Derf, post: 0"]If you want to intersperse your...[/quote] Your response here..yada yada [QUOTE="Derf, post: 0"]That will end each snippet...[/quote] Your response here to another portion of Derf's post..yada yada

After proper placement of beginning and ending quote tags, the above yields when posted:

If you want to intersperse your... Your response here..yada yada That will end each snippet... Your response here to another portion of Derf's post..yada yada

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Adam had the same nature, but he chose to disobey God.

Indeed. Thus, the completion of the sentence above..

Adam had the same nature, but he chose to disobey God, failing in his probation, thus corrupting that unfallen human nature and, as a direct consequence, all his progeny by ordinary generation.​

That last bit, ordinary generation, accounts for the fact that Our Lord was conceived very differently than all us other folks.

Hence the term, in Adam, meaning those who possess that fallen nature, if and until they are born anew, and becoming in Christ by adoption.

AMR

 

[tdhiggins]

I see you meant to say I'm refusing to acknowledge Romans 5:18. I'm not, and if you read it more carefully, you might see what is actually being said.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.​

So what is Paul talking about? Death reigning because of Adam's disobedience. (All die even those who had not sinned like Adam). A sentence of condemnation TO DEATH, with no hope at all of a resurrection. Compared to the obedience of Christ, which caused that sentence to be so greatly reversed that death will not finally triumph.

And how is it that the condemnation is passed down from Adam? That is the whole point. Since Adam sinned, and we being united to him in some way, also sinned and fell and are condemned. That is why death reigned (reigns) over men. People die because it is an effect of the totally corrupted nature.

Now, corrupted does not mean "as evil as possible," but tainted, stained (which are Biblical terms for what sin does to us). It is possible for an unregenerate person to do "good deeds." But it is impossible for an unregenerate person to do any good pertaining to salvation. The Holy Spirit must create a new heart within a person (regeneration) before that person can have faith. That is why Paul says that salvation which comes through faith is a gift, not a result of works, in Eph. 2:8-9.

Now, you may say that the "gift" is salvation. I agree. But salvation comes through faith, which means that in order to obtain salvation one must have faith. If this faith is of our own doing, that means that we have obtained salvation by our own work or exercise of faith. Salvation, then, would no longer be a gift but of our own doing. The correct exegetical interpretation is that faith is a gift from God, not of our own doing, so that all of salvation - from beginning to end - is a gift from God.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Correct-Adam had no blood,"pre-fall."

You go from bad to worse!

First you say that the Lord Jesus is in heaven now in a natural body minus the blood and now you say that Adam was created without blood!

Since you think that the Lord Jesus is now in heaven bloodless then what do you say about the following verse?:

"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us" (Heb.9:11-12).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And why are His words "life" in the first verse?

The apostle John tells the Christian that they already have eternal life, and that life is in the Son:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).​

John doesn't say anything which even hints that these Christians do not posess eternal life in the Son.

I believe what John said. Do you?