ECT Suggestion to Knight

[glorydaz]

Being totally depraved and being unable to choose to believe a thing is the error that is Calvinism.

In contrast, in Scripture there is a difference between being totally depraved and being able to decide to believe a thing is or is not so.

Demons are totally depraved.

And yet, they have the ability to choose to believe a thing is so.

Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

That passage right there contains at least six true beliefs said demons had been able to choose to believe.

That there is a God;

That Jesus is the Son of God;

That a day;

Of judgement awaits them;

That Jesus will be the one judging them.

Meaning, they believe He is Lord of all.

Acts 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

There we see a "totally depraved" evil spirit able to choose to acknowledge Jesus' Authority, and that of Paul's, His servant.

And so on...

Rom. 5: 6-8.

I see no difference between claims of original sin and total depravity. Your post clarifies nothing.

 

[glorydaz]

So what you're saying is, you reject plain Scriptural teaching? Denying the doctrine of original sin (or total depravity or radical corruption whichever you like) is a heresy known as Pelagianism, condemned in the days of Augustine.

Plain scripture? I've seen the verses you use for total depravity, and I've seen how they're cherry picked and misunderstood. They give man an excuse, but Scripture tells us there is no excuse.

I consider what you preach to be heresy, so we can play that game.

 

[john w]

I see no difference between claims of original sin and total depravity. Your post clarifies nothing.

I affirm the doctrine of depravity, but reject the Calvinism/Clavinism doctrine of "total" depravity-there is a world/eternity of difference....details....

 

[genuineoriginal]

I see no difference between claims of original sin and total depravity.

Here are the only differences I can find:
Catholics are damned because of original sin and Calvinists are damned because of total depravity.
Catholics can overcome original sin through baptism.
Calvinists have no way to overcome total depravity, since their fate has been foreordained from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Tambora]

Christ was also a son of man (Adam).
If all that descended from the loins of Adam were tainted with sin in the womb, then ..........

 

[glorydaz]

I affirm the doctrine of depravity, but reject the Calvinism/Clavinism doctrine of "total" depravity-there is a world/eternity of difference....details....

Would you mind giving me some of those details?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Thus, you could be considered to be made alive by the gospel, even though you weren't dead yet, and even though you are still going to die.

I just have a difficult time believing that, especially considering what the Lord Jesus said here:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

And here:

"“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

First we see that His words bring spiritual life and in the second verse we see that those who believe are passed from spiritual death to spiritual life.

I see no evidence that the "death" and "life" were postponed or did not happen then and there.

 

[john w]

People die physically because they do not have access to the Tree of Life.

Why would they die if they have no access to the tree of life? Babies, also? "Cuz?" What happened, when Adam fell? That is the key.....Something terible happened....spiritual death=the Spirit Of God left Adam......=separation from God.....From flesh and bone, to what? You guessed it....Flesh and blood.....

And hence...Connect the dots...

Leviticus 17:11 KJV

For the life of the flesh is in the blood:


And hence, atonement through the spilling/shedding of blood...


And hence, the restoration of a body, "Eden revisited/restored," similar to what Adam had, but more glorious, re"energized," "fashioned like unto his glorious body," at the redemption of the body, for members of the boc, and the resurrection of the body, for members of the nation Israel.

 

[glorydaz]

Christ was also a son of man (Adam).
If all that descended from the loins of Adam were tainted with sin in the womb, then ..........

That's what I say.... Something isn't right in Denmark.

And this...

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

 

[genuineoriginal]

Christ was also a son of man (Adam).
If all that descended from the loins of Adam were tainted with sin in the womb, then ..........

The answer given for that dilemma is that original sin is passed to the next generation by the man and Jesus did not have a man as a father to pass original sin to Him.
Then the Catholics go off book and claim that Mary was the first human after Adam and Eve to be born free from original sin...

The Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, is the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception keeping her "immaculate".​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

At the same time, leave it to you not to see that the exact same circular reasoning within its own vacuum that Flip was making all that hilarity about, is your exact same circular reasoning - within your vacuum.

You have given absolutely no evidence that I use circular reasoning. Just because you say so means nothing.

 

[john w]

Would you mind giving me some of those details?

Yes. Another thread. I am known as one of the staunchest opponents of TULIP, the lynch pin of it being TOTAL (my emphasis)depravity.But, then again, I am known for hijacking threads!

 

[john w]

You have given absolutely no evidence that I use circular reasoning. Just because you say so means nothing.

You use circular reasoning. My evidence? Your "posts."

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's what I say.... Something isn't right in Denmark.

And this...

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

"Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).​

 

[john w]

That's what I say.... Something isn't right in Denmark.

And this...

Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

Not "biologically."

That is, while the LORD God created Adam, daddy Adam is not the LORD God's seed. In contrast, David is the seed/progeny/descendant of Adam, and from David came Mary, from Mary came the Lord Jesus Christ. Hence, the Lord Jesus Christ is of the seed of David through his mother Mary, who herself was descended from David-according to the flesh. Indeed, not only men are described as having "seed" in scripture, as the prophecy relates how "her seed"(women having a seed?!),i.e., Eve's-survey ; Gen. 3:15 KJV....) would crush the subtil serpent's head. Thus, being fulfilled by the the virgin conception

 

[Tambora]

Why would they die if they have no access to the tree of life? Babies, also? "Cuz?" What happened, when Adam fell? That is the key.....Something terible happened....spiritual death=the Spirit Of God left Adam......=separation from God.....From flesh and bone, to what? You guessed it....Flesh and blood.....

And hence...Connect the dots...

Leviticus 17:11 KJV

For the life of the flesh is in the blood:


And hence, atonement through the spilling/shedding of blood...


And hence, the restoration of a body, "Eden revisited/restored," similar to what Adam had, but more glorious, re"energized," "fashioned like unto his glorious body," at the redemption of the body, for members of the boc, and the resurrection of the body, for members of the nation Israel.

Might explain why Adam said the following without the mention of blood.

Genesis 2 KJV
(23) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

 

[tdhiggins]

Plain scripture? I've seen the verses you use for total depravity, and I've seen how they're cherry picked and misunderstood. They give man an excuse, but Scripture tells us there is no excuse.

I consider what you preach to be heresy, so we can play that game.

How is it total depravity gives anyone an excuse? As Paul says in Romans 5:18, our corruption leaves us condemned before God. Total depravity does not mean that anyone has any excuse. The Scriptures do not teach that we have no moral guilt because we are sinners from birth. The Scriptures teach that we stand condemned along with Adam. The only salvation from that condemnation comes through the work of Christ to make atonement for His elect.

 

[Tambora]

The answer given for that dilemma is that original sin is passed to the next generation by the man

Well that's kinda going off book (ie. made up).

Then the Catholics go off book and claim that Mary was the first human after Adam and Eve to be born free from original sin

That's what happens when you start with a premise that is made up to begin with.
You keep having to make up other stuff to make your made up premise sound plausible.

Christ has no sin because Christ has never sinned.

 

[Danoh]

I affirm the doctrine of depravity, but reject the Calvinism/Clavinism doctrine of "total" depravity-there is a world/eternity of difference....details....

Exactly.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[glorydaz]

The answer given for that dilemma is that original sin is passed to the next generation by the man and Jesus did not have a man as a father to pass original sin to Him.
Then the Catholics go off book and claim that Mary was the first human after Adam and Eve to be born free from original sin...

The Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, is the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the merits of her son Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church teaches that God acted upon Mary in the first moment of her conception keeping her "immaculate".​

I've seen so scripture that supports either.

What I have seen is people ignoring that "dilemma" or just brushing it aside. :think: