ECT Suggestion to Knight

[john w]

Job 15:14 KJV

What is man, that he should be clean?and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Hence, one of the reasons for the virgin conception.....
_____________________________________________________
Genesis 3 KJV
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

A woman having a "seed?"

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Job 15:14 KJV

What is man, that he should be clean?and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Why didn't you quote the earlier words?:

"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not" (Job 14:1-2).​

David confirms that he came forth like a flower when he wrote the following:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

The advocates of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb totally corrupted. But the Scriptures declare that people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

It is impossible that anything that is already corrupt can be corrupted because corruption speaks of going from a state of being "good" to a state of no longer being good.

If we are to believe your ideas we must stand reason on its head and imagine that it is indeed possible to corrupt things which are already corrupt!

 

[Derf]

Well, when you come to a better understanding than the one I gave about the kind of death mentioned at Colossians 2:13 let me know, would you?

Well, if Ecc 12:7 is describing physical death, then there must still be some kind of spirit that returns to God--the spirit is not "dead", is it?

But if we are "spiritually dead" that means our spirit has been separated from God due to sin. But why, then would God want our dead, sin-filled spirit to return to Him when we die. Seems like it isn't so dead.

I would instead suggest that Col 2:13 and Ecc 12:7 are both dealing with physical death; Ecc 12:7 as an actuality, and Col 2:13 as a foregone conclusion.

The predominant reformed position of Col 2:17 is that is means that we are spiritually dead and can't do anything spiritual. I think that's where you stand, too, if I understand your comments well enough. But what is a spiritual act?

And if a dead spirit means we can't do anything spiritual, doesn't a dead flesh mean we can't do anything fleshly? Then why does Paul say in Gal 5:24 that we have crucified the flesh (it is "dead" right) immediately after saying we should not be doing fleshly things and getting under bandage to them? Sounds like he is saying we should not do something that is impossible to do--why any admonition at all?

I'm asking and suggesting here--I don't know that my suggestion is any good, but it seems like a good idea not to pour presupposed meanings into words without at least some scepticism about their origin.

 

[Danoh]

You did not address why people die, the root cause of death. All you've argued is "cuz."


Why death? Cuz? People croaked, from Adam, to Moses, w/o any law condemning them.

Why? Paul's argument.

Lol - Jerry goes from taking great issue with why God would create babies as sinners (Jerry's ignorance of what is actually being asserted) to asserting that ALL die because GOD cut off access to the tree of life to ALL (which would include babies).

:chuckle:

Jerry, your reasoning is far too often the circular reasoning within its own ever full of gaping holes vacuum of a cult maker and or cult follower.

You are either that incompetent or that dishonest.

No thanks,

Rom. 5: 6-8.

 

[john w]

Why didn't you quote the earlier words?:

"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not" (Job 14:1-2).​

David confirms that he came forth like a flower when he wrote the following:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

The advocates of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb totally corrupted. But the Scriptures declare that people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

It is impossible that anything that is already corrupt can be corrupted because corruption speaks of going from a state of being "good" to a state of no longer being good.

If we are to believe your ideas we must stand reason on its head and imagine that it is indeed possible to corrupt things which are already corrupt!

The Kid: An apple tree only becomes an apple tree, after it brings forth apples/fruit.


What is man, that he should be clean?and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

Hence, one of the reasons for the virgin conception.....



__________________________________________________ ___
Genesis 3 KJV
15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

A woman having a "seed?"


The kid: We were born sinless, like the Saviour!!!!!!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I would instead suggest that Col 2:13 and Ecc 12:7 are both dealing with physical death; Ecc 12:7 as an actuality, and Col 2:13 as a foregone conclusion.

That cannot be right because here Paul makes it plain that those who were dead as a result of their own sin have already been made alive:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

How is it possible that people can be made alive together with Him if they are not already dead?

If the death mentioned in this verse is only a forgone conclusion and not an actual death then how can anyone be made alive from a death that has not yet happened?

 

[john w]

Of course everyone knows that when infants emerge from the womb they speak lies! Why should anyone even imagine that what is said there can be taken literally since it is obviously figurative language?

Why did you not address what David said about how he was made?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Cat got your tongue, big boy? And why did you not address what the Lord Jesus said about little children?:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children have no chance of being in the kingdom if they die before they are born again spiritually. And if little children are spiritually dead then why would the Lord Jesus say the following about them?:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

According to your silly ideas the Lord Jesus was telling them that in order to enter the kingdom they must be spiritually dead like little children!



The Lord Jesus is now in a spiritual body because flesh and blood bodies cannot enter the heavenly kingdom of God (1 Cor.15:50). But you said that the Lord Jesus is now in heaven in a flesh and bone body. So that is your idea of what is a spiritual body!

At least you are good for a laugh every now and then, sonny boy!

Psalm 58:3 KJV
The wicked are estranged from the womb:they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Job 14:4 KJV
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Matthew 7:11 KJV
If ye then, being evil,...


Jeremiah 13:23 KJV

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
_________________

by nature children of wrath

 

[john w]

No, I just cannot trick my mind into believeing that the LORD wants all people to be saved and despite that He creates people in such a way that if they die as an infant they will go straight to hell.

According to the theory of Original Sin people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

If that is true then we must throw our reason to the wind an imagine that the LORD will punish people for doing the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Yes, from his youth. Not from his birth.



If sin dwells in infants when they emerge from the womb with corrupted bodies. But here is what David said:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children are dead spiritually and headed for hell and have no chance for entering the kingdom if they die before they are born again spiritually. However, the Lord Jesus said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Believe what you want, john, but for me I will believe what the Lord Jesus said about little children instead of the theory of Original Sin, which was developed during the dark ages!



Yes, sonny boy, you stumped us all a long time ago when you said that the spiritual body is nothing but a natural body without the blood!

BRILLIANT!

13 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



You: Paul, you are saying that God says "sin that dwelleth in me!!" Why would God allow that!!!!?????Paul, you are saying that "evil is present with me!!" Why would God allow that!!!!????? Paul, you say that "in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing!!!"Why would God allow that!!!!?????

 

[john w]

Of course everyone knows that when infants emerge from the womb they speak lies! Why should anyone even imagine that what is said there can be taken literally since it is obviously figurative language?

Why did you not address what David said about how he was made?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Cat got your tongue, big boy? And why did you not address what the Lord Jesus said about little children?:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children have no chance of being in the kingdom if they die before they are born again spiritually. And if little children are spiritually dead then why would the Lord Jesus say the following about them?:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

According to your silly ideas the Lord Jesus was telling them that in order to enter the kingdom they must be spiritually dead like little children!



The Lord Jesus is now in a spiritual body because flesh and blood bodies cannot enter the heavenly kingdom of God (1 Cor.15:50). But you said that the Lord Jesus is now in heaven in a flesh and bone body. So that is your idea of what is a spiritual body!

At least you are good for a laugh every now and then, sonny boy!

"according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

 

[john w]

by nature children of wrath

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The kid: We were born sinless, like the Saviour!!!!!!

The Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was made like us in every way. So why don't you believe that?

And I still wait for your explantion as to why the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your silly ideas a little child cannot even enter the kingdom of God even though the Lord Jesus says that the kingdom belongs to them.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

by nature children of wrath

Yes, after a person sins then his nature can be described that way.

But what about what Paul said about the Gentiles who do not have the law?:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

The advocates of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb totally corrupted. But the Scriptures declare that people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

It is impossible that anything that is already corrupt can be corrupted because corruption speaks of going from a state of being "good" to a state of no longer being good.

If we are to believe your ideas we must stand reason on its head and imagine that it is indeed possible to corrupt things which are already corrupt!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lol - Jerry goes from taking great issue with why God would create babies as sinners

In order to be a sinner a person must first sin. So babies are not sinners because they haven't yet sinned!

You prove over and over that you will believe anything, no matter how ridiculous.

 

[john w]

The Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was made like us in every way. So why don't you believe that?

And I still wait for your explantion as to why the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your silly ideas a little child cannot even enter the kingdom of God even though the Lord Jesus says that the kingdom belongs to them.

The Kid: An apple tree only becomes an apple tree, after it brings forth apples/fruit!!! We were born of the Holy Spirit, not a woman, as we all had a "virgin conception!!!!

Sssssssssssssssssssss...

 

[john w]

Yes, after a person sins then his nature can be described that way.

But what about what Paul said about the Gentiles who do not have the law?:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

The advocates of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb totally corrupted. But the Scriptures declare that people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

It is impossible that anything that is already corrupt can be corrupted because corruption speaks of going from a state of being "good" to a state of no longer being good.

If we are to believe your ideas we must stand reason on its head and imagine that it is indeed possible to corrupt things which are already corrupt!

by nature children of wrath

No-that is our nature, because of our daddy.An apple tree produces apples, by nature.

Yes, after a person sins then his nature can be described that way.

The kid:Yes, after an apple tree produces apples/fruit, its nature can be described that way as an apple tree.


Pathetic.

 

[john w]

Yes, after a person sins then his nature can be described that way.

But what about what Paul said about the Gentiles who do not have the law?:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).​

The advocates of the theory of Original Sin say that all people emerge from the womb totally corrupted. But the Scriptures declare that people corrupt themselves:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Ex.32:7).​

It is impossible that anything that is already corrupt can be corrupted because corruption speaks of going from a state of being "good" to a state of no longer being good.

If we are to believe your ideas we must stand reason on its head and imagine that it is indeed possible to corrupt things which are already corrupt!

Job 15:14 KJV

What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?

by nature children of wrath

 

[Jerry Shugart]

by nature children of wrath

I still await your answer as to why you think that the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children cannot even enter into the kingdom.

Please tell me why I should believe you and not the Lord Jesus?

 

[john w]

I still await your answer as to why you think that the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children cannot even enter into the kingdom.

Please tell me why I should believe you and not the Lord Jesus?

The kid: An apple tree becomes an apple tree, by nature, only after it produces apples/fruit.

No, kid...Genesis....Genesis 5:3 KJV....after its own kind.....We are born in daddy Adam's likeness, image...."The Adams Family".....Dead "in Adam."

Please tell me why I should believe you and not the Lord Jesus?

The kid's "Hail Mary," he eventually employs, when others are picking him apart. It can be employed on any topic, any website.


How about this, kidlease tell me why I should believe you and not the Lord Jesus Christ, God the Father, Paul? Oh, what the h....Here is the clincher:

Please tell me why I should believe you and not the scriptures?



See how that works, kid? I just "one upped" you!!! Fun!And TOL laughs at you, when you resort to that debate clinhcer/stumper, sophistry.

 

[john w]

I still await your answer as to why you think that the Lord Jesus was in error when He said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children cannot even enter into the kingdom.

Please tell me why I should believe you and not the Lord Jesus?

1.I still await you answer on the 65 questions that I've asked you over the last year.

Fun!

2. Chapter, verse, that I requires me to answer any/all questions, especially from those that have an unteacheable "spirit," engages in deception, such as yourself. I've asked you that over 25 times.


by nature children of wrath


Your troll quotient is moving up, kid.

 

[Derf]

That cannot be right because here Paul makes it plain that those who were dead as a result of their own sin have already been made alive:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

How is it possible that people can be made alive together with Him if they are not already dead?

If the death mentioned in this verse is only a forgone conclusion and not an actual death then how can anyone be made alive from a death that has not yet happened?

Being made alive can also be a foregone conclusion--the preferred alternative to the foregone conclusion of death, and an acknowledgement that though we will still die physically, it isn't a permanent death--thus is just a "sleep" state, like John 11:11 or Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. [1Co 15:18 KJV]

The state of those that "are fallen asleep" is indistinguishable from someone who has "perished"--the difference being that the fallen asleep ones will not stay that way.

My interpretation is not the only possibility, I admit that. But if it is a possibility, then yours is not the only possibility either--which you should admit until you know better.