ECT Suggestion to Knight

[john w]

Ephesians 2 KJV

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


Read it....something in us is wrong...as we walk...

-"according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

-by nature the children of wrath,


by nature......memorize it.....We sin, because we are sinners, as we have a sin nature..."the spirit that now worketh in" us, from the devil, " the prince of the power of the air."


Paul's struggle....Romans 7 KJV:

13 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

____

"....for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;..." Genesis 8:21 KJV

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Wages are not always disbursed immediately upon completing a task.

Yes, but in the case we are discussing the wages had already been disbursed:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

Paul tells the Christians that they have been "quickened together" with Christ and that can only be speaking of "spiritual" life. So the death in the same verse is a "spiritual" death.

A person dies spiritually when he sins because sin separates the soul of man from God. And since all people die spiritually when they sin then that means that all people were once alive spiritually. The only way that could have happened is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

If you do not think that people die spiritually when they sin then tell me what kind of death Paul makes reference at Colossians 2:13?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

-by nature the children of wrath,

If those words are speaking about the way that God created people then why would He do such a thing? Would that not make Him the author of sin?

Can people not ask, "LORD, you made me evil so how can you condemn me when I sin because you designed me to do that very thing?"

I say the words "by nature the children of wrath" are referring to the change in man's nature once he sins.

 

[Derf]

Yes, but in the case we are discussing the wages had already been disbursed:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).​

Paul tells the Christians that they have been "quickened together" with Christ and that can only be speaking of "spiritual" life. So the death in the same verse is a "spiritual" death.

A person dies spiritually when he sins because sin separates the soul of man from God. And since all people die spiritually when they sin then that means that all people were once alive spiritually. The only way that could have happened is because all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive.

If you do not think that people die spiritually when they sin then tell me what kind of death Paul makes reference at Colossians 2:13?

That's what I mean. If we assume there is such a distinction in deaths as a "spiritual death" vs a "physical death", then we can probably only come to the conclusion you've reached. If you assume death means that the body stops functioning, then the verse makes plenty of sense in that the targets of Paul's letter were once destined to death, and now they are destined to life, even though death waits--it has been made into something non-permanent--a "sleep" as both Jesus and Paul call it.

And then it gives the hope of resurrection in a physical body, as Job was expecting, and as Jesus demonstrated with His bodily resurrection.

 

[john w]

If those words are speaking about the way that God created people then why would He do such a thing? Would that not make Him the author of sin?

Can people not ask, "LORD, you made me evil so how can you condemn me when I sin because you designed me to do that very thing?"

I say the words "by nature the children of wrath" are referring to the change in man's nature once he sins.

More of your "Do you really think....Why would God......?" debating MO. It's called humanism=I, Jerry, cannot understand how spiritually dead people can be referred to as "by nature the children of wrath," and how God could do that, as that would that not make Him the author of sin, so he did not. What I do not understand, I will not believe... That is how atheists dismiss the concept of hell.....

You, kid, time and time again, for years, on TOL, eventually resort to "Do you really think that.....blah blah blah..?...That's laugheable,...." when opponents challenge your argument.


An atheist, to you: Do you really think that this "Jesus" walked on water, made limbs grow, the blind see, raised the dead, and He rose from the dead? That's laughable!!!!


You: Well, uh, urr, you see.....

 

[john w]

If those words are speaking about the way that God created people then why would He do such a thing? Would that not make Him the author of sin?

Can people not ask, "LORD, you made me evil so how can you condemn me when I sin because you designed me to do that very thing?"

I say the words "by nature the children of wrath" are referring to the change in man's nature once he sins.

No, it says, "by nature"-stop the spin.

Paul's struggle....Romans 7 KJV:

13 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



You: Paul, you are saying that God says "sin that dwelleth in me!!" Why would God allow that!!!!?????Paul, you are saying that "evil is present with me!!" Why would God allow that!!!!????? Paul, you say that "in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing!!!"Why would God allow that!!!!?????

Read it.....sin.....singular....sin nature...

"....for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;..." Genesis 8:21 KJV

 

[john w]

If those words are speaking about the way that God created people then why would He do such a thing? Would that not make Him the author of sin?

Can people not ask, "LORD, you made me evil so how can you condemn me when I sin because you designed me to do that very thing?"

I say the words "by nature the children of wrath" are referring to the change in man's nature once he sins.

"according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

No spin zone.....

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's what I mean. If we assume there is such a distinction in deaths as a "spiritual death" vs a "physical death", then we can probably only come to the conclusion you've reached.

Well, when you come to a better understanding than the one I gave about the kind of death mentioned at Colossians 2:13 let me know, would you?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You, kid, time and time again, for years, on TOL, eventually resort to "Do you really think that.....blah blah blah..?...That's laugheable,...." when opponents challenge your argument.

Oh, yea, big John! I can see why you think that there is nothing wrong with the LORD imputing Adam's sin to an innocent infant and as a result that infant is spiritually dead. And then if that infant dies physically before he can be born again spiritually then he will go to hell for ever.

I had a feeling that we don't worship the same God because the One I worship would not do something that hideous. In fact, there is no darkness in the God which I worship (1 Jn.1:5).

Read it.....sin.....singular....sin nature...

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" (Jn.1:29).​

Read it.....sin.....singular.......sin nature?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is "sin" a substance which can attach itself to the flesh of people? Or perhaps what is said there is not to be taken literally?

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Do you think that when Adam ate of the tree of good and evil that his body became corrupted? Let us look at the following verse in order to understand what Paul is saying:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).​

This verse is in regard to believers and when Paul contrasts walking in the flesh with walking after the spirit he is speaking about being self-centered as opposed to being God-centered. Paul employs that same figurative language here:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Ro.8:5).​

And here:

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Ro.8:8).​

And here:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).​

The death spoken of here is in regard to the Christian's walk, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11).

The word "flesh" in the following verse is also speaking about being self-centered and not God-centered:

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).​

You think that a person's flesh is really corrupted? And it happened when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? How did the flesh get corrupted?

I can always depend on your judgment about these things, as witnessed by your conclusion that a spiritual body is a natural body with its blood removed!

BRILLIANT!

 

[john w]

Oh, yea, big John! I can see why you think that there is nothing wrong with the LORD imputing Adam's sin to an innocent infant and as a result that infant is spiritually dead. And then if that infant dies physically before he can be born again spiritually then he will go to hell for ever.

Confirmed humanist.

You: I do not see why O, "god," you think that there is nothing wrong with you imputing Adam's sin to an innocent infant and as a result that infant is spiritually dead. And then if that infant dies physically before he can be born again spiritually then he will go to hell for ever!!!!! What I don't understand, I will not believe. That's not fair!!!!

An atheist:I do not see why O, "god," you think that there is nothing wrong with you consigning people to to hell for ever!!!!! That's not fair!!!!What I do not understand, I will not believe!!!! Thus, there is no hell!!!!


Job 34 KJV
12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly,neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

I had a feeling...

Correct-you base your "no sin nature" jazz, on feelings, not the book:

Paul's struggle....Romans 7 KJV:

13 But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.



You: Paul, you are saying that God says "sin that dwelleth in me!!" Why would God allow that!!!!?????Paul, you are saying that "evil is present with me!!" Why would God allow that!!!!????? Paul, you say that "in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing!!!"Why would God allow that!!!!?????

Read it.....sin.....singular....sin nature...

"....for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;..." Genesis 8:21 KJV




"according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

No spin zone.....

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world" [/I](Jn.1:29).[/INDENT]

Read it.....sin.....singular.......sin nature?

What a mess...John 1:29 has NADA to do with the Lord Jesus Christ dying for our sins, as you've been show, kid.

 

[john w]

Is "sin" a substance which can attach itself to the flesh of people? Or perhaps what is said there is not to be taken literally?



Do you think that when Adam ate of the tree of good and evil that his body became corrupted? Let us look at the following verse in order to understand what Paul is saying:

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Ro.8:4).​

This verse is in regard to believers and when Paul contrasts walking in the flesh with walking after the spirit he is speaking about being self-centered as opposed to being God-centered. Paul employs that same figurative language here:

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit" (Ro.8:5).​

And here:

"So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God" (Ro.8:8).​

And here:

"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:13).​

The death spoken of here is in regard to the Christian's walk, that "we should also walk in newness of life" (Ro.6:4) so that "the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh" (2 Cor.4:11).

The word "flesh" in the following verse is also speaking about being self-centered and not God-centered:

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death" (Ro.7:5).​

You think that a person's flesh is really corrupted? And it happened when Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? How did the flesh get corrupted?

I can always depend on your judgment about these things, as witnessed by your conclusion that a spiritual body is a natural body with its blood removed!

BRILLIANT!

Spin:

sin that dwelleth in me.


the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"


"....for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;...


Jeremiah 17:9 KJV....


The kid Jerry: An apple tree becomes an apple tree, only when it produces apples.

Survey Genesis, "The Seed Plot" of the book:

"...the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind,...after his kind...every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind:....the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: ....the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind:.....Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, .............................................................................................................................................................................................................................."
Genesis 5 KJV
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:



But, then again, you are always right.

 

[john w]

Do you think that..... BRILLIANT!

The kid's MO on TOL-humanism...

An atheist to you: Do you really think that this "Jesus" walked on water, made the blind see, grew limbs, raised the dead, rose from the dead, (fill in the blank?)???????? BRILLIANT!!!!!


It is also engaging in sophistry. The lost pick you apart, in "debates," kid. Do members of the boc a favor-stay out of the way of the troops-stay in the bleachers, booing the real players.


Now, kid Jerry...Time for your nap. Pull up your bunny shirt, and drink your milk, as the meat, you cannot bear.

Night, night....time f

 

[john w]

Well, when you come to a better understanding than the one I gave about the kind of death mentioned at Colossians 2:13 let me know, would you?

Stumped the band there, kid.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Confirmed humanist.

No, I just cannot trick my mind into believeing that the LORD wants all people to be saved and despite that He creates people in such a way that if they die as an infant they will go straight to hell.

According to the theory of Original Sin people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

If that is true then we must throw our reason to the wind an imagine that the LORD will punish people for doing the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

"....for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;...

Yes, from his youth. Not from his birth.

sin that dwelleth in me.

If sin dwells in infants when they emerge from the womb with corrupted bodies. But here is what David said:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children are dead spiritually and headed for hell and have no chance for entering the kingdom if they die before they are born again spiritually. However, the Lord Jesus said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Believe what you want, john, but for me I will believe what the Lord Jesus said about little children instead of the theory of Original Sin, which was developed during the dark ages!

Stumped the band there, kid.

Yes, sonny boy, you stumped us all a long time ago when you said that the spiritual body is nothing but a natural body without the blood!

BRILLIANT!

 

[john w]

The bible...a book of details....A book of "three's"/unity.....

Paul, acting like a lawyer, his progression in Romans, in the "court room:"


Romans, chapter 5: Sin on a person-condemnation/judgment

Romans, chapter 6: Sin over a person-domination/control

Romans, chapter 7: Sin in a person-desperation


Thus, as whoever coined this, so aptly put, re. salvation(to be delivered/set free from a danger):

We are saved from the penalty of sin(justification), we are being saved from the power of sin(sanctification/our walk), and will be saved, in the future, from the presence of sin(at the resurrection, the redemption of the body, "the change").

 

[john w]

No, I just cannot trick my mind into believeing that the LORD wants all people to be saved and despite that He creates people in such a way that if they die as an infant they will go straight to hell.

According to the theory of Original Sin people emerge from the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil."

If that is true then we must throw our reason to the wind an imagine that the LORD will punish people for doing the very things which He designed them to do:

"...the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds...unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil" (Ro.2:5-6,8-9).​

Yes, from his youth. Not from his birth.



If sin dwells in infants when they emerge from the womb with corrupted bodies. But here is what David said:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children are dead spiritually and headed for hell and have no chance for entering the kingdom if they die before they are born again spiritually. However, the Lord Jesus said the following about little children:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

Believe what you want, john, but for me I will believe what the Lord Jesus said about little children instead of the theory of Original Sin, which was developed during the dark ages!



Yes, sonny boy, you stumped us all a long time ago when you said that the spiritual body is nothing but a natural body without the blood!

BRILLIANT!

Boy? Tough guy, are you, kid?

Spin. Confirmed humanist.We know=I cannot understand how there can be (hell, "original sin"......,), so they do not exist.





The kid: An apple tree only becomes an apple tree, when it produces apples/fruit.


Vs.

The bible: After its kind....An apple tree produces apple/fruit, because that is its nature.



Contrasts.



"....for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;...


The kid: Kids have to learn to be selfish, cranky, disobeying.....Then, there inside turns evil




sin that dwelleth in me.

The kid: That sin came into Paul, when he had an evil thought,......Before that, when he was born, he was pure. He coveted,..... because he learned it after he was born!!!!

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV

The kid: Let me splain, spin this one, also, in my "one verse in isolation" manner, you see, uh, urr.



the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:"

The kid: No sin nature, there.....,

Yes, sonny boy, you stumped us all a long time ago when you said that the spiritual body is nothing but a natural body without the blood!

I never asserted that, satanic accuser. False dichotomy.


Night, night, kid.

 

[john w]

Yes, from his youth. Not from his birth.



If sin dwells in infants when they emerge from the womb with corrupted bodies. But here is what David said:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

BRILLIANT!

Psalm 58:3 KJV
The wicked are estranged from the womb:they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV
The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately wicked: who can know it?


Job 14:4 KJV
Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Matthew 7:11 KJV
If ye then, being evil,...


Jeremiah 13:23 KJV

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.
_________________

by nature children of wrath

 

[john w]

Yes, from his youth. Not from his birth.

The kid MO of debating:

“. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Jonathan Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: “The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence . . . so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy.”


So there. You taught us that-we learned it from you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Psalm 58:3 KJV
The wicked are estranged from the womb:they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Of course everyone knows that when infants emerge from the womb they speak lies! Why should anyone even imagine that what is said there can be taken literally since it is obviously figurative language?

Why did you not address what David said about how he was made?:

"For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:13-14).​

Cat got your tongue, big boy? And why did you not address what the Lord Jesus said about little children?:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'" (Mt.19:13-14).​

According to your ideas little children have no chance of being in the kingdom if they die before they are born again spiritually. And if little children are spiritually dead then why would the Lord Jesus say the following about them?:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

According to your silly ideas the Lord Jesus was telling them that in order to enter the kingdom they must be spiritually dead like little children!

I never asserted that, satanic accuser. False dichotomy.

The Lord Jesus is now in a spiritual body because flesh and blood bodies cannot enter the heavenly kingdom of God (1 Cor.15:50). But you said that the Lord Jesus is now in heaven in a flesh and bone body. So that is your idea of what is a spiritual body!

At least you are good for a laugh every now and then, sonny boy!