ST. JOHN 11:26

[Rosenritter]

But if you can point me to the other conversation, I'd like to review it.

This seems to be in the thick of the conversation here. You could look back and forth several days from this landmark.

Not Samuel.

If God refused to speak to Saul through legitimate means (Samuel when alive), neither would he speak to him through illegitimate means (Dead Samuel).

Spoiler

God refused to let Samuel speak to Saul while he was alive. I find it hard to accept that in this desperate hour, after refusing to speak to him by dreams, Urim, and other prophets, God did give him a direct word from the Lord through an cursed methodology.

I think there are at a minimum two huge textual questions for the pro-Samuel crowd to answer, namely the significance of "Samuel's" rising up from the ground, and his declaration that Saul will be with him. As soon as one starts explaining these observations in terms of "realm of the dead," and alleged "OT perspective" on the afterlife, he leaves the text behind, and begins his own version of systematic theologizing.

The relevant texts are 1 Sam.15:35;19:18,22,24; and especially 1 Sam. 28:6 "And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams or by Urim or by prophets."

In other words, Saul sought for legitimate means to have God speak to him. He prayed, he went to worship, he sought the will of God through the intermediaries God had provided--priests and prophets. And God literally would not speak to him.

Did God permit Saul to know the truth, via the medium? Yes, though why Saul should have expected a speaker of unreliable pronouncements to give him insight only shows how far he had fallen.

God influenced Ahab through a "lying spirit" in the mouth of his false prophets. God can do what he likes.

God can speak through an donkey, but
1) people aren't typically trying to access secret knowledge through verbalizing animals,
2) there was no God given law against accessing the verbalized thoughts of animals, and
3) Balaam wasn't trying to get his donkey to talk to him.

There was Law against witchcraft. Ex.22:18; Lev.19:31; 20:27; Dt.18:10-11

Saul had harried mediums out of the land (1 Sam. 28:3,9), in accordance with the Law's prohibition. Saul knew these were agents of evil standing against God. But he somehow thinks one of these creatures will be able to compel Samuel's attendance?

If God wasn't going to speak through legitimate means to Saul, even though he sought them out (recall God even spoke truth to Ahab, when he sought out Micaiah), I don't believe that he gave Saul even a message of judgment through his ghostly prophet, summoned buy a medium.

A careful study leads me to think it was a demonic seance, and it was attended by a demon. But I don't think that anyone should have been inclined to believe the word of a demon, a medium, or any "spirit" message produced in that environment.

AMR

Most of the relevant posts that I'm thinking of seem to be in the June 26th - June 28th zone on that thread.

 

[glorydaz]

"Cognition" is the act of gaining knowledge, or the state of knowing, so that is the primary thing [MENTION=18255]Rosenritter[/MENTION] was pointing out.

I know the meaning of the word, and the "knowledge" Rosen claims to have gained is based on a preconceived notion of what Scripture says. I've been down that road...

Your point is a good one, imo, but it only negates it as an argument for Rosen's position, it doesn't help your position.

We'll have to rely on other scriptures for that.

I was merely giving you an example of a verse Rosen has used in the past.

I'm always intrigued with Samuel's ghost, or whatever it was, in 1 Sam 28.

[1Sa 28:13 KJV] And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
[1Sa 28:14 KJV] And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.
[1Sa 28:15 KJV] And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

Many apparently consider this apparition a trick of the woman, or a demon responding to the woman, but I tend to think it really was Samuel. If so, here are some things that it might tell us:

Samuel rose "up" from the ground.
He was like a "god", or there were "gods" accompanying him.**
He looked old.
He wore clothes (which helped Saul to recognize who it was, somehow).
Saul had been resting, or in some state that his coming back was "disquieting".

Just this passage alone doesn't slam the door on a soulish wakefulness in Sheol, even if I'm reading it rightly, but it brings up some interesting questions.

I believe you are reading it rightly. God allowed the appearance of Samuel, for Samuel's sake. Samuel had loved Saul. There is a great history there worth discussing. I prefer studying directly from the Scripture instead of bringing in fifteen other opinions and claiming the "truth" is in the numbers. It would be nice if we could do that.

If Samuel's soul was in Sheol, and his body was in the grave, were the two reunited for this appearance? Was Saul remembering what Samuel was buried in? I tend to think of this description as very lacking in details, if one were to be checking the prophet's identity to avoid a scam. "Old man" and "covered with a mantle"?

But if it were just a "soul" are souls "old" vs "young" or "ageless", and do they present themselves with clothes because they have modesty?

I think what Samuel is wearing just shows he was dressed as usual. Irrelevant.

Finally, does "disquieted" mean that Samuel had been at rest? Was he in fact "asleep" in some way? Or is that merely a reference to his body. If it was a reference to his body, then it seems like the body was needed for the soul to make an appearance

It simply means that he had finished with the problems done "under the sun", and hated to be drawn back even though God may have been giving Saul another chance. Samuel was beyond the cares of this world.

**on the question of what is meant by "gods": I took this to mean that angels went to get Samuel to bring him up from the grave, because vs 13 talks about "gods ascending out of the earth", but vs 14 says "an old man cometh up", suggesting there were two parts of this arising episode--one where "elohim" (probably angels) came out of the earth, and one where an old man came up out of the earth. Maybe they were lifting him up out of the earth, so they came up first, then Samuel came up.

Don't know. Didn't get a chance to discuss it too deeply on the last thread because there was so much unbelief in the spirit realm at that time. The argument grew wearisome.

This harkens back (forward?) to the Lazarus story, because angels came to get Lazarus (Luk 16:22). What are the angels actually "getting" in these two cases? Maybe "souls" can't move around on their own, or don't know where to go. Or maybe, like Moses' (Jude 1:9), they were getting Lazarus's body, just as they were getting Samuel's, and in contrast to the rich man's body that was buried.

The physical body is in the grave, but there are different spiritual bodies given for different purposes.

If the latter, then the story of Lazarus might very well be a fast-forward to the judgment, and the rich man's torment might refer to his position in the lake of fire. Time seems to get all wonky when talking about future things.

There was a difference before the Cross and after the Cross. No one could go to Heaven before Christ. A study of the place of the dead is interesting for those who know man is composed of body, soul, and spirit.

 

[glorydaz]

The "Lazarus and the rich man" parable doesn't have any mention of spirits in it.... though there is mention of eyes and tongues.

Jesus made it clear these men were dead. So He was either telling a whopper about the afterlife, or he expected the hearers to know there is a spirit realm. After all, God is spirit. Just as angels are from the spirit realm. What do you think the angel was....flesh and blood?

 

[way 2 go]

Where are you getting your information from?

definition of
Hades is the abode of departed souls

If they are, then the sea is equal to "death and Hades" in terms of what happens to them

death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire not the sea &
those thrown in the lake will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Mat 25:46
Rev 20:10 And the Devil who deceived them was cast into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were . And he will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

--Rev 20:13 is crystal clear in that, and the Luke passage doesn't mention a place called "death" or "the sea". That either makes the sea a place where spirits are kept until judgment or it makes "death and hades" places where dead bodies are.

no

The text should be consistent with itself, especially within the context of the single verse in Revelation.

still no problem with the Sea in the verse still does not change the what is raised from Hades which could only be spirits
such as the rich mans spirit

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.

But you make the statement, "Hades is a place for spirits" like it is common knowledge, so that you don't need scripture to help you define it. Is that true?

that IS the definition of Hades
Hades the abode of departed souls
as described by Jesus the creator of the place in Luk 16:23

Finally, the Lazarus passage, which is the main one used to tell us the state of "Abraham's Bosom" prior to Christ's sacrifice and resurrection, specifically distinguishes "Hades" from the place Abraham and Lazarus were. It seems like they were NOT in Hades, though they could see it and hear the rich man over the great gulf (Lu 16:26).

Abraham's Bosom has already been emptied when Jesus preached to them after the cross 1Pe 3:19

and believers do not go there anymore
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

 

[Jacob]

I would like to acknowledge that this stuff is hard to follow. I can say that the question of if everyone dies is different than what happens when a person dies.

 

[Rosenritter]

I would like to acknowledge that this stuff is hard to follow. I can say that the question of if everyone dies is different than what happens when a person dies.

Here's a short sketch.

Job 3:11-19 KJV
(11) Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
(12) Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
(13) For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
(14) With kings and counsellors of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves;
(15) Or with princes that had gold, who filled their houses with silver:
(16) Or as an hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants which never saw light.
(17) There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the weary be at rest.
(18) There the prisoners rest together; they hear not the voice of the oppressor.
(19) The small and great are there; and the servant is free from his master.

Hebrews 9:27-28 KJV
(27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Acts 24:14-15 KJV
(14) But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
(15) And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Revelation 20:5-6 KJV
(5) But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
(6) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:11-12 KJV
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Matthew 25:31-34 KJV
(31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
(33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Matthew 25:41 KJV
(41) Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 21:6-8 KJV
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Malachi 4:1-3 KJV
(1) For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
(2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
(3) And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Revelation 21:1-4 KJV
(1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
(2) And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
(3) And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Derf]

This seems to be in the thick of the conversation here. You could look back and forth several days from this landmark.



Most of the relevant posts that I'm thinking of seem to be in the June 26th - June 28th zone on that thread.

Thanks for the link.

It's not one of your better performances, I'm sorry to say. AMR's was about par--declaring truth ex cathedra.

 

[Derf]

So whether this was the actual Samuel or not has no bearing on the subject that was being discussed.

It might, if we could determine from the story whether it was the real Samuel, whether he was in some state of sleep prior to the event, and what happened afterward. Those things being lacking, you're probably right.

 

[Derf]

I know the meaning of the word, and the "knowledge" Rosen claims to have gained is based on a preconceived notion of what Scripture says. I've been down that road...

And maybe hard to tell if we're going down it again, as per my limited conversation with [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION].

I believe you are reading it rightly. God allowed the appearance of Samuel, for Samuel's sake. Samuel had loved Saul. There is a great history there worth discussing. I prefer studying directly from the Scripture instead of bringing in fifteen other opinions and claiming the "truth" is in the numbers. It would be nice if we could do that.

Maybe in another thread. Jacob is complaining about a turn in topic.

It simply means that he had finished with the problems done "under the sun", and hated to be drawn back even though God may have been giving Saul another chance. Samuel was beyond the cares of this world.

Maybe so. Hard to tell from the passage. Lends itself to preconceived notions.

Don't know. Didn't get a chance to discuss it too deeply on the last thread because there was so much unbelief in the spirit realm at that time. The argument grew wearisome.

I thought you did fairly well in the conversation, but I get the wearisome argument complaint.

The physical body is in the grave, but there are different spiritual bodies given for different purposes.



There was a difference before the Cross and after the Cross. No one could go to Heaven before Christ. A study of the place of the dead is interesting for those who know man is composed of body, soul, and spirit.

I'm not too clear on what a "spiritual body" is (or why you think there are so many of them), except from where Paul talks expressly about the resurrection of the body ("it", not "he"):
[1Co 15:42-43 KJV] So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I agree there was a difference before and after the cross, but I wonder why the emphasis on "today" for the thief on the cross, if Jesus wasn't yet resurrected "today", and appeared to spend the three days in the grave or Hades, depending on how you look at it. If Hades, then I suppose the "remembrance" is that the thief doesn't have to be in the tormenting section, but is it really what Jesus is saying?

This all may need to wait for another thread, per [MENTION=5582]Jacob[/MENTION].

 

[Jacob]

And maybe hard to tell if we're going down it again, as per my limited conversation with [MENTION=2801]way 2 go[/MENTION].

Maybe in another thread. Jacob is complaining about a turn in topic.


Maybe so. Hard to tell from the passage. Lends itself to preconceived notions.


I thought you did fairly well in the conversation, but I get the wearisome argument complaint.



I'm not too clear on what a "spiritual body" is (or why you think there are so many of them), except from where Paul talks expressly about the resurrection of the body ("it", not "he"):
[1Co 15:42-43 KJV] So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I agree there was a difference before and after the cross, but I wonder why the emphasis on "today" for the thief on the cross, if Jesus wasn't yet resurrected "today", and appeared to spend the three days in the grave or Hades, depending on how you look at it. If Hades, then I suppose the "remembrance" is that the thief doesn't have to be in the tormenting section, but is it really what Jesus is saying?

This all may need to wait for another thread, per [MENTION=5582]Jacob[/MENTION].

Talk what you want I just do not know if it is relevant to me anymore. Not too bad.

 

[Idolater]

...AMR's was about par--declaring truth ex cathedra.

:chuckle: And upon which 'cathedra' is AMR sitting? :AMR:

 

[Derf]

:chuckle: And upon which 'cathedra' is AMR sitting? :AMR:

You know...the TOL Bishopric.

 

[Rosenritter]

I agree there was a difference before and after the cross, but I wonder why the emphasis on "today" for the thief on the cross, if Jesus wasn't yet resurrected "today", and appeared to spend the three days in the grave or Hades, depending on how you look at it. If Hades, then I suppose the "remembrance" is that the thief doesn't have to be in the tormenting section, but is it really what Jesus is saying?

1 Samuel 18:21 KJV
(21) And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.

When Saul said "Thou shalt this day" "be my son in law in one of the twain" ... what length of task did he prescribe before that could be fulfilled?

 

[Rosenritter]

Thanks for the link.

It's not one of your better performances, I'm sorry to say. AMR's was about par--declaring truth ex cathedra.

I don't know if there was a single concise post covering everything: that topic was scattered about. Looking there again, I did notice that you participated in that thread at that time also:

I'm surprised at your answer here, AMR, especially after your rather firm denial of the possibility of phenomenological language in the Joshua's long day account.

Spoiler

As pointed out by @way 2 go, the narrative (not Saul, not the witch, and not the demon, but the narrative) would have to be considered untrustworthy for it not to be Samuel. 1 Sam 28:20


One thing that seems to be missing in this discussion is a recognition that the witch may not have done anything at all to bring up the thing represented as Samuel. The text doesn't say she did. Maybe that was why she was surprised--not necessarily because it wasn't a demon, but because she hadn't done her normal incantations.


Another interesting note is that the thing represented as Samuel seems to have needed additional, other-worldly help to come up. [1Sa 28:13 KJV] 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. As pointed out before, something surprised or worried her, and when Saul asked what it was, this is the statement she replied with. And a single demon answering the summons would be unlikely to need accompaniment. If it were a demon that she normally summoned, I can see how seeing "gods" (perhaps angels) coming up out of the earth would be a shock to her.


Finally, and I apologize for taking these out of order, just because God had not spoken to Saul when he sought him at other times, doesn't mean that He wouldn't answer this time, especially after Saul compounded his guilt by seeking out a medium.


Seems you might have, inadvertently I'm sure, left the text behind, and begun your own version of systematic theologizing.


Is it a problem that Samuel was brought up from the ground and that Saul would later be with him? I don't think so. Don't we all "rise" from the dead at the resurrection (1 Thess 4:16)? And certainly Saul and his sons would be in Sheol "with Samuel". That might easily just mean that they would be dead, or it could mean that they would be in Abraham's bosom, or even that Samuel would be in Abraham's bosom and Saul and sons (Jonathon excluded, likely) in the more wretched side of Hades like the rich man.


Maybe this passage SHOULD be informing our system.

I used the link and read the post about Joshua's Long Day. I agree with AMR that the sun stood still in Joshua's day. And now that you bring it up, this instance of Joshua actually provides another evidence that the spirit was not the real Samuel. It's right there in the text with Joshua.

Spoiler

Joshua 10:12-14 KJV
(12) Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
(13) And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
(14) And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.


First, it states that this was a miracle of the LORD, and second, it said that this was the most unusual thing ever that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man. Not happened before, shall not happen afterwards.


Now consider the instance of the witch. It does not say that this was a miracle of the LORD, and some people here have suggested that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a witch! Ah, but you say, perhaps the LORD decided of his own will coincidentally? That's not acceptable either, for look how Jesus answered the temptation of the devil? When he was hungry, and Satan told him to make bread, he refused to avoid any appearance of obeying the suggestion.


Is God going to even make it look like he is obeying the witch? The text of Samuel doesn't say that this is a miracle of the LORD. The spirit says that he was brought up by the seance, not by an act of the LORD.


1 Samuel 28:15 KJV
(15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.


As for the integrity of the narrative, it tells us that the rebellion of Saul is as the sin of witchcraft, which was the reason Saul had the kingdom stripped from him, and also why God stopped talking to Saul. So when Saul engages in actual witchcraft, the narrative itself has already provided all the evidence we need to know that this isn't a prophet of God speaking to Saul. The integrity of the narrative itself demands that attempting to bypass God again is not going to bring him the real Samuel.


It doesn't tell us what rituals the witch may have done, because the scripture has never been of the intent of telling us what these rituals are. Therefore what she did or didn't have to do remains speculation, and rightly so.


However, the text does not say she was surprised by anything other than the identity of her client, that is, the king of Israel, the executioner of witches, Saul himself.


1 Samuel 28:12 KJV
(12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.


Saying that she was surprised by anything else would be speculation beyond what is given by the text.

 

[Derf]

I don't know if there was a single concise post covering everything: that topic was scattered about. Looking there again, I did notice that you participated in that thread at that time also:

See? You were disagreeing with me--not one of your better moments. :chuckle:

But I may have to retract. Anyone who goes off to read one of my links to a previous post of mine can't be all bad.

 

[Derf]

Talk what you want I just do not know if it is relevant to me anymore. Not too bad.

Tell you what. I'll at least try to show some relevance in the recent posts to what you originally asked about, which I'll quote here:

What do you think of this verse? How are we to understand it?

ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

ST. JOHN 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
ST. JOHN 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
ST. JOHN 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

What do you think it means,

"whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die."

I hope that what I have to offer does not bring more confusion.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Thank you for your contribution to this thread. Your insight is much appreciated.

You seem to be asking whether it makes sense for those of us that are alive and believe in Christ to ever die (you can correct me if I missed your intention).

I have proposed in other threads that some of the things Jesus or Paul said about us were not currently true, even though they spoke as if they were currently true. I tend to think of these things as assured fulfillment of promises. Jesus' words to Martha in John 11:26 might well be along those lines, and could apply to the idea expressed by Paul that "we shall not all sleep". The "we" in Paul's letter was inclusive of people that had not even been born yet, and exclusive of himself and all the original recipients of the letter to the Corinthians.

Paul could have said, "We may all sleep, but at some point in the future, folks who are alive when Christ returns will not sleep, but will be changed instantaneously."

Could Jesus have been saying the same kind of thing? Possibly, though it's a bit more of a stretch.

Everybody from both Jesus' and Paul's times have all died ("gone to sleep"), and we have a conundrum if Jesus didn't mean something future. Some suggest that the idea of an aware soul in "paradise" is a way to make Jesus' words more true--that they aren't really "dead", but their body is asleep--not functioning and even decaying. But if we get to claim Jesus' promise based on that, so may unbelievers, including the rich man in the Lazarus and rich man story. He was aware even after he died, so he wasn't really dead.

And within that point of view, nobody has ever really "died". So then we have to come up with another definition of "death", and the one I've heard most is "separation from God". I'm not too thrilled with that definition, because we are also born separated from God, according to some of the same folks, due to our inheritance of original sin. If that's true, then those who never believe never really "die", because they are never united with God, so they start their life "dead" and end up "dead", and are "dead" all the time in between.

The conversation then had to turn toward trying to figure out what "dead" means, and that's where we went off on a supposed tangent--talking about Hades and souls and soul-sleep, Samuel's ghost, etc.

 

[Jacob]

Tell you what. I'll at least try to show some relevance in the recent posts to what you originally asked about, which I'll quote here:






You seem to be asking whether it makes sense for those of us that are alive and believe in Christ to ever die (you can correct me if I missed your intention).

I have proposed in other threads that some of the things Jesus or Paul said about us were not currently true, even though they spoke as if they were currently true. I tend to think of these things as assured fulfillment of promises. Jesus' words to Martha in John 11:26 might well be along those lines, and could apply to the idea expressed by Paul that "we shall not all sleep". The "we" in Paul's letter was inclusive of people that had not even been born yet, and exclusive of himself and all the original recipients of the letter to the Corinthians.

Paul could have said, "We may all sleep, but at some point in the future, folks who are alive when Christ returns will not sleep, but will be changed instantaneously."

Could Jesus have been saying the same kind of thing? Possibly, though it's a bit more of a stretch.

Everybody from both Jesus' and Paul's times have all died ("gone to sleep"), and we have a conundrum if Jesus didn't mean something future. Some suggest that the idea of an aware soul in "paradise" is a way to make Jesus' words more true--that they aren't really "dead", but their body is asleep--not functioning and even decaying. But if we get to claim Jesus' promise based on that, so may unbelievers, including the rich man in the Lazarus and rich man story. He was aware even after he died, so he wasn't really dead.

And within that point of view, nobody has ever really "died". So then we have to come up with another definition of "death", and the one I've heard most is "separation from God". I'm not too thrilled with that definition, because we are also born separated from God, according to some of the same folks, due to our inheritance of original sin. If that's true, then those who never believe never really "die", because they are never united with God, so they start their life "dead" and end up "dead", and are "dead" all the time in between.

The conversation then had to turn toward trying to figure out what "dead" means, and that's where we went off on a supposed tangent--talking about Hades and souls and soul-sleep, Samuel's ghost, etc.

Well, interesting. I noticed something about soul-sleep. But that didn't relate to anything that I was asking. True if I talk about all dying and find an exception then not all will die (not all will sleep). I do not know what you mean by things that are currently true. I do believe that there are things that are true based on revelation at particular times. What is true now is important. If not all sleep, some do. This is obviously after Christ (ascended).

 

[Danoh]

Regarding Saul and that witch, when its ENTIRE narrative is consulted, it is obvious that after Saul went about cleaning the swamp of witches, etc., that had obviously been allowed under Samuel, he then turned against God once more, when he turned to that witch, and by that further angered God for that, and paid dearly for it.

The ordinance under Moses had been to drive those out who were suspected of divination, but to kill those caught practicing it.

Even the witch had known that she was to be put to death should she be found practicing her abomination and reminds Saul of this.

To which he responds not only by going against Moses on that, but by taking the LORD's Name in vain, basing his promise to the witch that she will not be put to death, on God.

In the end, Saul kills himself, just like every other suicide in Scripture - each in connection with some sort of a having departed from Moses (The Law of the LORD, Luke later refers to it as, in Luke 2:39).

For as the following shows, by his having turned to that witch, Saul ended up making his already being faced with overwhelming odds - WITHOUT God - even worse...

Why?

Leviticus 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Nope, I'm not buying the notion that after God turned His back on Saul such that He cut off all communications (signs, visions, prophets) He then used a means of communicating He repeatedly instructs Israel, is an abomination unto Him.

Scripture is clear on this issue...

Deuteronomy 18:9 When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations. 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee. 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God. 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

In contrast to that, first we read...

1 Samuel 28:3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

But then we read of his turning in his obvious unbelief and impatience, against that momentary right course on his part, to an abomination...

1 Samuel 28:5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

Later, on, in the passages I am citing, we'll find that God judged him severely for his having done that. But moving on, we read...

1 Samuel 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

Not true, Saul.

Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Also...

Deuteronomy 5:11 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Result?

Saul made a very bad situation even worse for himself, by his further transgression against God, in his having turned to that witch...

1 Samuel 31:1 Now the Philistines fought against Israel: and the men of Israel fled from before the Philistines, and fell down slain in mount Gilboa. 31:2 And the Philistines followed hard upon Saul and upon his sons; and the Philistines slew Jonathan, and Abinadab, and Melchishua, Saul's sons. 31:3 And the battle went sore against Saul, and the archers hit him; and he was sore wounded of the archers. 31:4 Then said Saul unto his armourbearer, Draw thy sword, and thrust me through therewith; lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and abuse me. But his armourbearer would not; for he was sore afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword, and fell upon it. 31:5 And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead, he fell likewise upon his sword, and died with him. 31:6 So Saul died, and his three sons, and his armourbearer, and all his men, that same day together. 31:7 And when the men of Israel that were on the other side of the valley, and they that were on the other side Jordan, saw that the men of Israel fled, and that Saul and his sons were dead, they forsook the cities, and fled; and the Philistines came and dwelt in them. 31:8 And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa. 31:9 And they cut off his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people. 31:10 And they put his armour in the house of Ashtaroth: and they fastened his body to the wall of Bethshan. 31:11 And when the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead heard of that which the Philistines had done to Saul; 31:12 All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there. 31:13 And they took their bones, and buried them under a tree at Jabesh, and fasted seven days.

1 Chronicles 10:13 So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it; 10:14 And enquired not of the LORD: therefore he slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse.

In this, Isaiah's words come to mind...

Isaiah 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Romans 5:6-8, in each, our stead.

 

[Derf]

Well, interesting. I noticed something about soul-sleep. But that didn't relate to anything that I was asking. True if I talk about all dying and find an exception then not all will die (not all will sleep). I do not know what you mean by things that are currently true. I do believe that there are things that are true based on revelation at particular times. What is true now is important. If not all sleep, some do. This is obviously after Christ (ascended).

It is currently true that I am alive.
If Christ tarries, it will in the future be true that I am dead/asleep, but it is not currently true.

At the time Christ made the statements about people "never" dying, He was saying it to people who would indeed die, at least in the normal sense of the word.

Because Paul talked about some who would NOT die in the normal sense of the word (those who are alive at Jesus' return), it is possible that Jesus was referring to such a time. If not, then we have to discern what Jesus meant when He said that whoever believes in Him will NEVER die.

As in here: John 3:16, and here: John 11:26.

And even better, here: [Jhn 5:24 KJV] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If the people Jesus is speaking to died after He said that to them, yet He was telling them that they already had eternal life, how could they die? How can someone that already possesses eternal life die? I take it as a promise--that even though they die, their death is not going to be permanent. Thus, they could be considered "asleep".

But that is true of everybody--since both the just and the unjust will be resurrected in the last days, and be subjected to judgment in that resurrected state. So the important part, in my opinion, is that Jesus is promising that they won't be faced with that judgment that could result in a final death (after resurrection).

 

[Derf]

1 Samuel 18:21 KJV
(21) And Saul said, I will give him her, that she may be a snare to him, and that the hand of the Philistines may be against him. Wherefore Saul said to David, Thou shalt this day be my son in law in the one of the twain.

When Saul said "Thou shalt this day" "be my son in law in one of the twain" ... what length of task did he prescribe before that could be fulfilled?

Pshaw! How long would it take to get 200 Philistine foreskins? I wonder if he offered them the option of staying alive?