Thank you for your opinion.
ST. JOHN 11:26
- Thread starter Jacob
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Thank you for your opinion.
1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Because Romans 5: 6-8, in each, our stead.
Resurrected to heaven or on this earth or a new heaven and or a new earth?
Derf
Well-known member
Your definition, if not based on scripture, is at least biased toward something outside of scripture. That's why I'm looking for a scriptural definition. I'm not convinced the rich man/ Lazarus story is sufficient. Especially in light of the comment in Revelation 20:13. If Hades is THE abode of departed souls, then what are the things that are given up by the sea? If they aren't souls, then why do the things Hades gives up have to be souls? And what does "death" give up? Souls that are somehow alive without bodies? does that make sense? Do you have a definition of "death" as a repository of something that is alive?
Well, there is a problem if you're willing to see it. There is no indication in the passage that there is any difference in what each of those "places" gives up. They gave up "the dead". It doesn't say "dead people's spirits" or "souls of dead people", or even "dead people's little toes." It says "the dead". This is called a resurrection, which suggests that bodies are involved. It makes some sense, at least to me, that what is being given up is the bodies of the dead people, unless "The sea" is also a place where dead people's souls are stored, similar to Hades.
But as your definition points out, it is using the Luke 16 passage as the only reference that explains what Hades is. It points out that while people are expected to be judged at the resurrection, this man had apparently already been judged and found wanting, since he was already in torment. That sounds like there are 2 judgments--one before the resurrection, and one afterward. But that is contrary to what we are told elsewhere, that it is appointed unto man once to die, and then comes judgment (Heb 9:27), and that the resurrection occurs before the judgment (John 5:29).
Here are three definitions of Hades:
- name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
- Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
- later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
1 Pet 3:19 doesn't mention Abraham's Bosom. How do you know it's a place that can be emptied out. In truth, if you read the words just like they are, it makes no sense to say that Abraham's bosom was emptied out--unless Abraham no longer has a bosom.
I hope you can see that your preconceptions are driving your interpretation of these scriptures.
joeyarnoldvn
New member
Revelation 20:13 reminds me of when we see dead fish in the oceans, sea.
glorydaz
Well-known member
It would be to your benefit to do a study on this topic. I did at one time. It takes some digging...no pun intended.
The place of the dead is referred to by different names in the OT as opposed to the New. Also, Paradise, was below until Jesus resurrected...then it was moved up to the third heaven as Paul alludes to here. 2 Corinthians 12:4
Paradise is the same as Abraham's bosom, as I recall.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Concerning all who die prior to Christ's return, the Bible teaches that at the moment of death the human spirit (soul) departs its body to one of two possible destinations: Heaven or Hades (Luke 16:19-31; Phil. 1:19-26; James 2:26; Rev. 6:9, 20:4). Those who reach Heaven do so based not upon their own good works, but upon the work of Christ in their behalf—His righteous life and atoning death—and upon their God-given faith in Him (Mark 10: 45; John 1:12, 3:16; Rom. 3:21; Eph. 2:8-10).
The saints in Heaven (Abraham’s bosom)—fully aware of their surroundings and delighted by its manifold blessings per their walk of faith (Heb. 12:22-24)—eagerly await their Lord's return at the end of the age, when Our Lord will consummate their redemption by raising them from the dead with new, glorified, resurrection bodies just as He now possesses, and by creating for them a glorious new world in which they will forever live together with Him (Luke 20:27-40, John 5:28, 1 Cor. 15, Phil. 3:20-21; 2 Pet. 3:13).
Those who enter Hades (Sheol in Hebrew) do so based upon their own evil works, especially upon the evil work of suppressing the truth that God made known to them through nature, the Law, and the Gospel, the Gospel being God's only provision for the forgiveness of sin and the acquisition of eternal life (John 3:19,36: John 5:29; Acts 13:46, Rom. 2:8; 2 Thess. 1:8; Rev. 20:12).
In Hades the lost are in the torments of eternal punishment, deprived of God's every life-giving blessing, conscious of God's abiding wrath, and subject to the positive pains of divine retribution all according to their particular sins. Also, to the extent that they may be aware of it, the lost are tormented in this intermediate state of prison by anticipation of the Resurrection and the Day of Judgment, when Christ will send them—body and soul—into Gehenna (Hell), the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Mt. 8:29, Mt. 10:28, 25: 41; Mark 9:48, Luke 16:19-31; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:14) where they will remain forever afterwards suffering unending punishment.
AMR
Rosenritter
New member
Yet Solomon said that the dead all go to one place, that place being sheol.
Ecclesiastes 6:6 KJV
(6) Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV
(10) Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Lol, you sure are stubborn.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Nehemiah 8:8
True, all dead bodies go there.
And true, there are none of those activities for the dead body in the grave.
But, Solomon is speaking from the viewpoint of every man 'under the sun', that all is vanity/futility from that perspective.
The Bible is a progressive revelation.
Every 'consciousness cessationist' that I've ever read or talked with goes immediately to Ecclesisastes as their final authority, are satisfied, and then... look no further.
Then, they expect us 'mind/body dualists' to shut our mouths and also be satisfied with their 'annihilation/recreation' paradigm, when we've actually studied the rest of the Bible and have found that is teaches otherwise.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Had to be the real Samuel. Seers can't raise anyone from the dead. And it had to be Samuel, because he knew Saul and his sons would be killed the next day and be defeated by the Philistines.
1 Sam. 28:19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Rosenritter
New member
Stubborn ... in regards to what?
And what would that passage (above) have to do with AMR's statement that people immediately go to different places as soon as they die before the judgment? AMR may be skilled with the English vocabulary, but Solomon had wisdom exceedingly and granted from God, and the passages above are considered inspired holy writ. If AMR disagrees with Solomon I'm inclined to believe Solomon.
Rosenritter
New member
1. The Hebrew word is sheol, and as we have already seen demonstrated (in Revelation) the bodily remains are claimed by all sorts of sources.
2. Contrary to your objection, Solomon is referring to the whole man (not mere bodily parts) as he refers to mental and spiritual aspects, including knowledge and wisdom.
3. AMR stated that not all are claimed by sheol but that some go immediately to heaven and others immediately to sheol. That statement was not derived from scripture, but it is contradicted by scripture.
"Under the sun" is used as a term of expansive inclusion, not of exclusion.
Ah, you mean that the Holy Spirit can either lie be be flat-out wrong? That's a common defense of false doctrine, that would take one passage out of context and then needs an excuse to deny the rest of scripture. However, Jesus said "the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35) and we know that "all scripture" is given by inspiration of God.
2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
If your loyalty lies with "conscious immortality" then It must rankle that there are such plain scripture so easily found contradicting your chosen position. Of course someone would immediately go there. If someone were to say that God was not manifest in the flesh someone would also go straight to 1 Timothy 3:16, if someone were to say that Jesus was not born of a virgin then Matthew 1:23 becomes the first verse into play.
Pardon me, but I have difficulty believing that you have studied the rest of the bible and found that it teaches otherwise. Have you ever gone through the bible for the express purpose of noting when it speaks about death? Should you even bother, given that the typical defense is to declare the bulk majority of scripture as false or in error?
Genesis 3:3 KJV
(3) But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Genesis 3:19 KJV
(19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
Genesis 3:21 KJV
(21) Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
God introduces Adam and Eve to their choice in the garden: one choice leads to eternal life, the other to the knowledge of good and evil and ultimately death. From God's own word and by personal demonstration they can see what it means to die:
1) He plainly says that they are dust,
2) It means that they shall return to the dust from whence they came
3) God slays animals for their skins and they now have a demonstration of death
I doubt you would even attempt to postulate that God did not understand the meaning of death, but there remains great difficulty if you were to say that God chose to deceive Adam and Eve about the results of one of those courses of action. God set before them two choices and explained the consequences. They know what life is because they are alive, and they know what death is from description and demonstration.
So where does this leave the doctrine of "incessant consciousness?" In Genesis it must decide that has been deceptive (and lied) and that the serpent spoke words reflective of the truth, for we do not truly die and we are not truly dust, and when we die we do not actually return to the dust, but "only our body goes to dust" and we "continue to live in a superior form." The doctrine that opposes God and sides with the serpent is Luciferian at its core and inception.
Ah, but perhaps Genesis is not inspired? Not of God? did God not understand what was going to happen (so it was not a lie) because no human had died yet? Because we have other prophets throughout the scripture that reaffirm that death is exactly what God said it was. You are no doubt familiar with these, as you have studied the whole scripture? How many times should the Bible have to repeat itself that it means what it said before you are willing to believe it? Once? Twice? What about five times? This is a foundational concept.
You wrote but I do not understand,
and as we have already seen demonstrated (in Revelation) the bodily remains are claimed by all sorts of sources.
Derf
Well-known member
It would be to your benefit to do a study on this topic. I did at one time. It takes some digging...no pun intended.
The place of the dead is referred to by different names in the OT as opposed to the New. Also, Paradise, was below until Jesus resurrected...then it was moved up to the third heaven as Paul alludes to here. 2 Corinthians 12:4
Paradise is the same as Abraham's bosom, as I recall.
I think a study on it is a great idea. But what I've found so far is that there is a story that is circulating in many Christian circles that seems to be from some other source than the bible. I'm not saying the story isn't true--it might be--but I'm having a hard time finding scriptural evidence for it.
For instance, the idea the "Abraham's bosom" is a name for the place of the dead believers before Christ is found only in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. And in that story, Abraham was present in scene that used the name "Abraham's bosom". Was Abraham in "Abraham's bosom", as he would have to be if the name refers to a place? Does that even make sense? Or does it merely mean "close to and being comforted by Abraham"?
What about "Paradise"? It was used by Jesus to comfort the thief on the cross, and by Paul, as you pointed out, and then by John in Rev 2:7. Jesus doesn't give us any description, so we surmise what He was talking about by comparing it with other scriptures that don't use that name. Then we assume that Jesus transported the place (not just the people) to heaven. Where does this story come from? I think it is based on trying to put together the few scriptures we have. For instance, Rev 2:7 tells us "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." We assume there is only one tree of life, and that it once grew in Eden. Pro 3:18, 11:30, 13:12, and Pro 15:4 tell a slightly different story, though not one that negates the other one--just allows for us to think differently about the the tree of life really is.
What about the moving of the place called "Abraham's Bosom", "Paradise", and the "good" section of Hades/Sheol? That comes from Paul: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [Eph 4:8 KJV] In the following verses Pauls expounds on both the idea of Christ ascending (9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? [Eph 4:9 ESV]), and on the idea of Him giving gifts to men (11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, [Eph 4:11 ESV]), but he doesn't give us much of a clue about the leading of captivity captive. What does that mean "led captivity captive"? I would propose to you that the simplest meaning is that He conquered death. "Captivity" could easily be a euphemism for "death", and when He led it captive, He took away its power and its free reign over people.
Finally, we have 1 Pet 3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
But the context doesn't allow for it to be simply the holding place of souls of people that have died prior to Christ's coming, as is evident in the next verse: 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. [1Pe 3:20 ESV]
We're talking about dead people from Adam through Lazarus (temporarily) to Zechariah's son John (how's that for an A-to-Z list), but the context only allows for imprisoned spirits from before the flood.
The story is given in pretty good detail in the Roman Catholic catechism:https://www.kofc.org/en/catechism/index.html# (search on "hades")
And is roundly described in this work attributed to Josephus (though I'm skeptical about its origin): https://sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/hades.htm
Again, I'm not saying this "story" about Hades being a holding place for souls is incorrect, but it seems a little cartoonish to me--too much of a story, but without much corroboration.
Derf
Well-known member
I'm pretty sure he's talking about Rev 20:13. Though some here have disputed whether "bodily remains" are the topic in that verse.
I do not know about that.
way 2 go
Well-known member
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
not outside of scripture Jesus tells us
1 rich man died
2 rich man buried , therefore body in the ground
3 rich man in Hades & fire therefore has to be his spirit or soul can't be his body
4 rich man is talking to Abraham who is dead & buried can't be Abraham's body either has to be his spirit
now
Rev 20:13 tells us that there are people that are raised from Hades which means there
has to be people in Hades
people are buried in graves & the Sea not in Hades
There is
1 spiritual death Mat 8:22 Mat 22:32 Luk 15:32
2 physical death Mat 8:22
3 there is alive yet dead Rev 20:12 Luk 16:30
4 death as a place Rev 20:13
5 death as a person Rev 6:8
Jesus already told us what is in Hades the rest might be open for debate but not Hades.
obviously he has not been judged since judgement day has not occurred :
did you miss that he is in Hades which will be thrown into the lake of fire after judgement day ?